*A: Transition from solars to advanced

[SLizer]

Playing past few days I have had a nagging feeling that Implementing EC change from solars to advanced solars instead of fusions might be a good roll.
Going from solars to Fusions happens for few reasons:
1. You are being carried by your teammates with the resources aka you leech
2. You have already gone t2 and you just whip it up with Nanos.
3. You sacrifice your whole EC to get it done.

What if instead of taking such a huge leap you could get some adv solars up. This would be around the time you shift from t1 to t2. Either before or after. No point stalling with the lab. t1 can at that point be spammed with some ease and after having few adv`s up could get that lab up faster and after you would have some stable E and a choice of expansion/raiding.
Problem with the Adv solars is the E cost. Having few Nanos helping con building those damn things costs E, way way too much E for the phase of the game where lines are drawed for good and every scrap reclaimed and every tank surviving is a factor.
So the underlaying dilemma is: Can you somehow make your game work with adv solars instead of waiting till you get the 4k metal and whip up fusion.

Feel free to discuss.

[Pressure Line]

So the underlaying dilemma is: Can you somehow make your game work with adv solars instead of waiting till you get the 4k metal and whip up fusion.

Feel free to discuss.

what mod? and what does this have to do with the lobby?

[BaNa]

:) this may not be the best place for the thread.

Most of the people i play with maek advanced solar after the fifth or sixth normal solar, because space and m costs are better. The very fact that you get the E incrementally makes it worthwile compared to that first fusion, even tho you only have about 80% the E. Anyway, in CA for instance you can morph normal solars to advanced ones.

[DemO]

Back in the day when greenfields was the most popular map in Spring my build was always heavy adv solar from an early tech, using a couple of t1 constructors assisted by farks. The incremental increase in energy allowed for a quick t2 air rush or a core nuke primed and ready to fire by the 20 minute mark, whilst everyone else stalled to their first adv fusion.

A long time ago almost everyone as far as I can remember went for early adv solar builds, as BaNa said, after about the 6th to 8th normal solar. The new up and coming players seem to have changed this trend and we see a lot more basic solar spam these days, with fusion being the energy structure of choice by T2 stage. It's easily possible to run heavy T1/T2 spam on Adv solars up to around 10k E, after which limited space usually comes into play and Fusions can be easily built without stall anyway.

Fusion will give marginally quicker build time than the equivelent in Adv solars IIRC, and more E for the cost in M, although at the disadvantage of being easy to take down by land or air and a much less progressive energy income.

Something common amongst most players is that they will tech with a weak t1 econ, i.e. +15 to +20 metal with +300 to +600 energy then will not have enough resources to continue production at T2 and will usually end up stalling massively for anywhere between 5-10 minutes after.

Teching on a weak econ is fine provided that you have a reasonable E output and another source of metal (i.e. reclaiming a lot of wrecks, or even reclaiming t2 lab after pushing out a few cons to make moho's), however personally I find neither of these to be favourable, and usually will back up my mex driven t1 econ with a reasonable amount of Adv solar or wind and t1 MM spam.

Doing this, it's quite easy to get to around +30 to +40m income per sec by around the 7 minute mark if you're porcing hard or about 10 minutes otherwise, after which teching is quick - you will end up getting your T2 lab by 11-12th minute, i.e. same time as the guy with the really weak t1 econ that stalls the lab to completion, and you can continue production through t2, be it some aggressive units, defensive structures, cons to tech up mexes or some of each without stalling horribly. People argue that the earlier a tech the better, and there is definately truth to this although the popular misconception is not to consider economy. There is an unwritten rule to an early tech - without an eco to get your T2 off the ground there really is not much point.

Sure, someone will probably quote me some very condition specific instances where an early tech with weak econ pays off, but I'm speaking in general terms.

Edit: Oh, and I was referring to BA also.

[rcdraco]

Why not make solar panels on a windmill? That's what my mod uses :D.

[Evil4Zerggin]

I agree with Solar -> Advanced Solar -> Fusion instead of just Solar -> Fusion. Solars are incredibly inefficient compared to other dedicated energy sources once you've spent your starting metal, and for a while I would try to go T2 without enough energy to back it up, generally because I would be distracted on the front lines and not progress beyond my first eight Solar and couple of Advanced Solar. As a result, I would encounter exactly the situation Dem0 described. Nowadays I usually wait until I have at least a dozen or so Advanced Solar before teching to T2, which works much better; it's not really much slower if at all and I get more units and econ in the meantime and a better base on which to build a T2 econ.

I've also experimented with a bizzare use of rush tech. In large team games, given 3 mexes, it is possible to get T2 in ~6 minutes (prolly can shave it down some more with further optimizations) by self-Ding your comm and using the metal. While this can be good for your allies, it kind of screws you for the rest of the game.

[Saktoth]

Demo, Adv solar was nerfed. It was just as effecient as fusion, incremental, and was t1. The only thing it had worse was its buildtime. This is why the old strat on GF and other maps was adv solar spam, even into late t2.

Adv sol was nerfed to be somewhere between fusion and solar, so now fusion is worthwhile. This is why the strats have changed, not just culture.

Personally, i always use wind spam though. When BA's solar was switched to use only metal, it got a cost increase as well (In fact it now costs as much as XTA's solar). However, wind got no cost increase (XTA's wind costs more FYI). The old 'average wind rate' where it was better than solar was around 7.something, now its about 5.7.

Anyway, a huge number of maps have wind '5-20' or '5-25' which, at its WORST, is about as good as solar, and at its BEST is 4/5x better than solar- better than adv fusion, but the huge amount of land needed to make that much wind is prohibitive, plus the low hp. There is also buildtime to factor in which is 15x cost for adv fusion and 42x cost for wind (Which is usually why its used on GF, huge wind farms become impractical after your econ starts getting underway). For reference, an average of about 13 wind = the same as adv fusion. Average on a 5-25 map is 15. Using a bit of e-storage and running an MM econ means the variability (which, as noted, at worst is as good as solar) is not a problem.

I only use adv solar on maps where the wind is below 7 or so (moon maps, DSD) and rarely even bother with fusions if i can get away with it.

[ginekolog]

Demo, Adv solar was nerfed. It was just as effecient as fusion, incremental, and was t1. The only thing it had worse was its buildtime. This is why the old strat on GF and other maps was adv solar spam, even into late t2.

Adv sol was nerfed to be somewhere between fusion and solar, so now fusion is worthwhile. This is why the strats have changed, not just culture.

Personally, i always use wind spam though. When BA's solar was switched to use only metal, it got a cost increase as well (In fact it now costs as much as XTA's solar). However, wind got no cost increase (XTA's wind costs more FYI). The old 'average wind rate' where it was better than solar was around 7.something, now its about 5.7.

Anyway, a huge number of maps have wind '5-20' or '5-25' which, at its WORST, is about as good as solar, and at its BEST is 4/5x better than solar- better than adv fusion, but the huge amount of land needed to make that much wind is prohibitive, plus the low hp. There is also buildtime to factor in which is 15x cost for adv fusion and 42x cost for wind (Which is usually why its used on GF, huge wind farms become impractical after your econ starts getting underway). For reference, an average of about 13 wind = the same as adv fusion. Average on a 5-25 map is 15. Using a bit of e-storage and running an MM econ means the variability (which, as noted, at worst is as good as solar) is not a problem.

I only use adv solar on maps where the wind is below 7 or so (moon maps, DSD) and rarely even bother with fusions if i can get away with it.

correct math. wind farms are worth it if avg wind is good but don rellay ony on wind when min wind <4.

[SLizer]

You can see I dont post lot on these forums, such nubbing.
Yes someone shove this to the proper forum and its BA yes.

[Hellspawn]

Demo, Adv solar was nerfed. It was just as effecient as fusion, incremental, and was t1. The only thing it had worse was its buildtime. This is why the old strat on GF and other maps was adv solar spam, even into late t2.

Adv sol was nerfed to be somewhere between fusion and solar, so now fusion is worthwhile. This is why the strats have changed, not just culture.

Personally, i always use wind spam though. When BA's solar was switched to use only metal, it got a cost increase as well (In fact it now costs as much as XTA's solar). However, wind got no cost increase (XTA's wind costs more FYI). The old 'average wind rate' where it was better than solar was around 7.something, now its about 5.7.

Anyway, a huge number of maps have wind '5-20' or '5-25' which, at its WORST, is about as good as solar, and at its BEST is 4/5x better than solar- better than adv fusion, but the huge amount of land needed to make that much wind is prohibitive, plus the low hp. There is also buildtime to factor in which is 15x cost for adv fusion and 42x cost for wind (Which is usually why its used on GF, huge wind farms become impractical after your econ starts getting underway). For reference, an average of about 13 wind = the same as adv fusion. Average on a 5-25 map is 15. Using a bit of e-storage and running an MM econ means the variability (which, as noted, at worst is as good as solar) is not a problem.

I only use adv solar on maps where the wind is below 7 or so (moon maps, DSD) and rarely even bother with fusions if i can get away with it.

correct math. wind farms are worth it if avg wind is good but don rellay ony on wind when min wind <4.

There is 1 more factor though, winds are a lot more vunerable.

[Neddie]

You can see I dont post lot on these forums, such nubbing.
Yes someone shove this to the proper forum and its BA yes.

I moved it into the correct forum right after ye posted it.

[Saktoth]

correct math. wind farms are worth it if avg wind is good but don rellay ony on wind when min wind <4.

You can easily rely on wind on maps that are 1-20, or 1-25. The average on those maps are 10.5 and 13 respectively. About 2x better than solar, and in the second case as good as adv fusion.

If you build an e-storage or two and run an MM econ (which is always a good idea when you rely on wind) its not really a problem.

There is 1 more factor though, winds are a lot more vunerable.

This is true, but the primary limiter here is space. You can afford 11 winds for the cost of the notoriously hard to kill adv solar. Each wind has 176 HP. 11 * 176 = 1936. An advanced solar only has 1020 HP. Thats prettymuch 2x the HP/cost. The problem is just chaining. If you space them, not only do they not chain, but you have to cross a vast area to kill all the winds- rather than just hitting 1 fusion with some bombers. But the more you space them, the more land they take.

The primary limiter to wind is space and buildtime. There comes a point where you just dont have enough room for any more winds, especially if you space them, and your economy is strong enough that you will have to spend a lot on mobile nano to make more wind.

Personally though, i dont space them very safely. I figure the risk is worth it for something as effecient as an adv fusion.

1v1's on the other hand, are a totally different matter but i infer from the original post that this is not what we are talking about.

[YokoZar]

The primary limiter to wind is space and buildtime. There comes a point where you just dont have enough room for any more winds, especially if you space them, and your economy is strong enough that you will have to spend a lot on mobile nano to make more wind.

Depending on who you have building the wind farm, the space can add significantly to buildtime. It looks like about 20% or so of the build time of a wind plant can be attributed to a con vehicle having to move and pull out its crane.

[Saktoth]

Yes well, the BT/cost is something like 3.5x, plus the space. So obviously thats your major obstacle.