*but will be buried and nice looking cofinspeople who use apple will die cold and alone
Players and a lack of testicular fortitude.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Microsoft made driver updates a frigging nightmare for GFX companies with vista.
Vista has a fraction of the device compatibility of earlier windows systems, in large part due to the fact that microsoft is getting frigging lazy and isn't doing half the basic driver coding that they used to. They are this massive overbearing company that just assumed that since they have the market share they could offload the work to other companies without paying them anything and lawl because they are the market standard and no one stands up to microsoft.
The industry response? Unsprizingly word of mouth spread that vista just doesn't work right. So sales plummeted, and that put the rest of the computer industry in the very reasonable position of saying "fuck you microsoft, we're sick of your shit, YOU go explain to your customers why their vista doesn't work, LOL!"
Never before in history has it been a hardware developers job to accommodate as small a market as vista owners are with as little accommodation from the OS provider as microsoft has provided. They were late shipping their driver dev kits, they made no incentives for companies to meet any standard of quality, they had no team come along side and work with driver development the way every previous windows release has always had. They just assumed that vista would inevitably blow up and the suckers would pick up the work to stay in the competitive market.
Frankly, I hope vista dies. It's the worst thing to happen to gamers ever.
Vista has a fraction of the device compatibility of earlier windows systems, in large part due to the fact that microsoft is getting frigging lazy and isn't doing half the basic driver coding that they used to. They are this massive overbearing company that just assumed that since they have the market share they could offload the work to other companies without paying them anything and lawl because they are the market standard and no one stands up to microsoft.
The industry response? Unsprizingly word of mouth spread that vista just doesn't work right. So sales plummeted, and that put the rest of the computer industry in the very reasonable position of saying "fuck you microsoft, we're sick of your shit, YOU go explain to your customers why their vista doesn't work, LOL!"
Never before in history has it been a hardware developers job to accommodate as small a market as vista owners are with as little accommodation from the OS provider as microsoft has provided. They were late shipping their driver dev kits, they made no incentives for companies to meet any standard of quality, they had no team come along side and work with driver development the way every previous windows release has always had. They just assumed that vista would inevitably blow up and the suckers would pick up the work to stay in the competitive market.
Frankly, I hope vista dies. It's the worst thing to happen to gamers ever.
tbh its not any different from when XP was released. Instead of working in house they released lots of beta versions to work with.
Most drivers from XP work with Vista anyway, the only drivers that really had to change were the Video drivers and the ones that misused the APIs or used nonstandard methods.
Hence why HP printer drivers were fail when Vista was released yet Lexmark printer drivers were perfect and only a 40 second automatic download via window update.
I think the FS driver setup changed too, not that many drivers were written for it by anyone but microsoft. I can only remember the EXT-2 linux driver for XP and the ntfs for windows 98 driver.
The changes to the gfx card driver model were apparently necessary for a lot of windows features to be implemented. Things like SLI in XP were implemented by bypassing windows and talking directly to the gpu using nonstandard APIs. Vist uses a gpu memory manager that virtualizes the graphics memory address space so that lots of programs can share gpu memory, allowing aero DirectX programs to run at the same time as media player or spring etc.. As a result the old method of direct communiction would seriously f*ck over Vistas setup and make DX10 impossible. It also allows Vista to catch gpu crashes and restart it, rather than giving a BSOD like XP.
Its a shame about the late driver kits though. Graphics card companies really have a mountain to climb with making the new drivers though, and this driver model change was a long time coming, and entirely necessary. Companies liek nvidia dont have the 2 drivers OGL and DX9 they used to have to make but instead they have DX9/DX10/OGL/DX9SLI/DX10SLI/OGLSLI 6 drivers. And since the driver model shifted radically, they havent a previous OS driver to retrofit.
However Vista performance with games is on the up all the time. Nvidia engineers note that atm the 160.* series drivers have at least a 10% room for improvement minimum, and the two Vista hotpacks (the official versions released yesterday not the leaked ones(yes there is a difference)) improve things too aswell as improving ingame details on textures.
So right now all my DX9 apps run fine on Vista. Lost planet DX10 is ok but generaly crap as its a cheap 360 port. And OpenGL varies greatly depending on how my gfx driver feels, it remains the only obstacle tot eh perfect PC atm.
You may also be interested to know numerous printers and cameras were fixed in the recent hotfix packs.
Most drivers from XP work with Vista anyway, the only drivers that really had to change were the Video drivers and the ones that misused the APIs or used nonstandard methods.
Hence why HP printer drivers were fail when Vista was released yet Lexmark printer drivers were perfect and only a 40 second automatic download via window update.
I think the FS driver setup changed too, not that many drivers were written for it by anyone but microsoft. I can only remember the EXT-2 linux driver for XP and the ntfs for windows 98 driver.
The changes to the gfx card driver model were apparently necessary for a lot of windows features to be implemented. Things like SLI in XP were implemented by bypassing windows and talking directly to the gpu using nonstandard APIs. Vist uses a gpu memory manager that virtualizes the graphics memory address space so that lots of programs can share gpu memory, allowing aero DirectX programs to run at the same time as media player or spring etc.. As a result the old method of direct communiction would seriously f*ck over Vistas setup and make DX10 impossible. It also allows Vista to catch gpu crashes and restart it, rather than giving a BSOD like XP.
Its a shame about the late driver kits though. Graphics card companies really have a mountain to climb with making the new drivers though, and this driver model change was a long time coming, and entirely necessary. Companies liek nvidia dont have the 2 drivers OGL and DX9 they used to have to make but instead they have DX9/DX10/OGL/DX9SLI/DX10SLI/OGLSLI 6 drivers. And since the driver model shifted radically, they havent a previous OS driver to retrofit.
However Vista performance with games is on the up all the time. Nvidia engineers note that atm the 160.* series drivers have at least a 10% room for improvement minimum, and the two Vista hotpacks (the official versions released yesterday not the leaked ones(yes there is a difference)) improve things too aswell as improving ingame details on textures.
So right now all my DX9 apps run fine on Vista. Lost planet DX10 is ok but generaly crap as its a cheap 360 port. And OpenGL varies greatly depending on how my gfx driver feels, it remains the only obstacle tot eh perfect PC atm.
You may also be interested to know numerous printers and cameras were fixed in the recent hotfix packs.
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CautionToTheWind
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 May 2006, 17:06
You are wrong with regards to the reason the graphic driver model was so changed. Vista is designed for draconian DRM control and to disable individual drivers should the corresponding device's protected data path be compromised. That is the reason each device must have a separate driver (instead of the old unified drivers). Vista was designed for Microsoft's customers, which are the media companies.
Whenever Microsoft sells you a turd because it was "the only way" to achieve some utterly trivial technical detail, we linux users laugh. I'll admit its an half-laugh, as we reboot into XP for some games, but at least we didn't dig a deeper hole for ourselves as with Vista.
Whenever Microsoft sells you a turd because it was "the only way" to achieve some utterly trivial technical detail, we linux users laugh. I'll admit its an half-laugh, as we reboot into XP for some games, but at least we didn't dig a deeper hole for ourselves as with Vista.
Oh noes, a linux fanboi
The original reason for their Video ram virtualization was to allow aero to run. Without this modification Directx and OpenGl programs wouldnt run while aero was enabled.
As for DRM, IIRC linux uses a similair virtualization setup.
Also, if microsoft didnt support the option of having DRM then a lot of custoemrs would get very angry that terabytes of DRM material was suddenly unneccessible. If you want to blame someone for DRM blame RIAA, ro soem other recordign company. Theyre the ones insisting on using DRM, theyre the ones makign the DRM technologies, go blame them.
As the provider of OS for most of the planet microsoft have to keep their options open and support as wide a format as possible.
If you're insisting the content protection path is evil, then thats nonsense. The vast majority Vista users will not be running Bluray and HD DVD videos while theyre browsing the web and playing games. OMG the evil content protection path software is loaded and running when it isnt needed omg omg, even microsoft arent that stupid.
In the mean time please show me your linux OS running Bluray/HD DVDs natively without ripping them and running them through tools or using API emulation layers such as wine.
The original reason for their Video ram virtualization was to allow aero to run. Without this modification Directx and OpenGl programs wouldnt run while aero was enabled.
As for DRM, IIRC linux uses a similair virtualization setup.
Also, if microsoft didnt support the option of having DRM then a lot of custoemrs would get very angry that terabytes of DRM material was suddenly unneccessible. If you want to blame someone for DRM blame RIAA, ro soem other recordign company. Theyre the ones insisting on using DRM, theyre the ones makign the DRM technologies, go blame them.
As the provider of OS for most of the planet microsoft have to keep their options open and support as wide a format as possible.
If you're insisting the content protection path is evil, then thats nonsense. The vast majority Vista users will not be running Bluray and HD DVD videos while theyre browsing the web and playing games. OMG the evil content protection path software is loaded and running when it isnt needed omg omg, even microsoft arent that stupid.
In the mean time please show me your linux OS running Bluray/HD DVDs natively without ripping them and running them through tools or using API emulation layers such as wine.
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CautionToTheWind
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 May 2006, 17:06
Be respectful if you want to be respected.AF wrote:Oh noes, a linux fanboi
That must be in some other distro of linux i'm not familiar with.AF wrote: As for DRM, IIRC linux uses a similair virtualization setup.
I did! Didn't you read?AF wrote: Also, if microsoft didnt support the option of having DRM then a lot of custoemrs would get very angry that terabytes of DRM material was suddenly unneccessible. If you want to blame someone for DRM blame RIAA, ro soem other recordign company. Theyre the ones insisting on using DRM, theyre the ones makign the DRM technologies, go blame them.
I didn't say such thing and i don't think its "evil". I think its "stupid". They built this multi-device DRM fortress so that you won't somehow dump it from your VGA memory or something, while the content they so protect is available for download for free. Basically, those Vista users that infringe copyright can still download and watch, and the system exists only to bother the law abiding ones such as (i presume) yourself that actually has real HD or bluray discs. The content path may or not degrade performance (i dont run vista) but so far is has cost you stable drivers. Sure it may be nvidia's fault that nvidia's drivers aren't good enough, but you wouldn't be in that situation if your beloved microsoft hadn't presumed you were a criminal.AF wrote: If you're insisting the content protection path is evil, then thats nonsense. The vast majority Vista users will not be running Bluray and HD DVD videos while theyre browsing the web and playing games. OMG the evil content protection path software is loaded and running when it isnt needed omg omg, even microsoft arent that stupid.
The media companies won't license software to do that in Linux for the simple reason that Linux does allow the software to have more control of your computer than yourself, which is a requirement of DRM.AF wrote: In the mean time please show me your linux OS running Bluray/HD DVDs natively without ripping them and running them through tools or using API emulation layers such as wine.
Playing the high-def decoded files that you can download or rip yourself is something linux can do just fine. If i remember correctly one of the big formats has already been cracked, and is probably playable in some latest CVS version of mplayer.
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CautionToTheWind
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 May 2006, 17:06
