REAL war protest

Wolf-In-Exile · Post by **Wolf-In-Exile** » 28 Nov 2006, 11:18

Directing hate at soldiers is mis-directed.

You have to ask yourself: why do people, given the choice, volunteer for service? Why would they risk life and limb to serve in the armed forces?

Is it the money?

I can think of lots more safer, higher paying jobs.

Is it because you can use firearms, or because you can shoot at other people while being shot at in return?

Erm, I don't believe people are that masochistic or suicidal.

Is it because they LIKE killing other people?

If you think this is true, you should get out more. Intentionally killing someone takes alot of will, there has to be a strong motivation for doing so.

Is it because serving in the military gives a person some measure of prestige?

Possibly, civilians normally have respect for members of the armed forces.

Or is it because of plain patriotism, wanting to serve your country for the sake of it?

Again another possibility. Though i'm not sure just how patriotic US troops are since I don't stay there, it is a common reason why people join their country's armed forces.

Its easy to condemn these people for their actions, but unless you have personally gone through what they have, you really have no right to criticise.

Also, soldiers can't choose who they would like to fight. Have you ever thought of that?

They are ordered to do so by their superiors (and the biggest brass ultimately being the politicians), and refusing a direct order is considered treason; whether or not a soldier feels its morally, politically or socially wrong, they cannot disobey orders without suffering serious consequences.

Offenders will be tried in a military tribunal, and the punishment can range from dishonorable discharge to summary execution.

As for the blame, well, you (collectively speaking) are the one who voted for the politicians.

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 28 Nov 2006, 11:46

Wolf-In-Exile wrote:...refusing a direct order is considered treason; whether or not a soldier feels its morally, politically or socially wrong, they cannot disobey orders without suffering serious consequences.

Ignoring the rest for the moment, this is not entirely true, if a soldier believes an order to be illegal he has the right to say no. Orders are no defence to war crimes, we proved than at Nuremburg.

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 28 Nov 2006, 13:38

...er, you are probably the only person posting in this thread that has a problem with that...

Agreed, as I am sure the vast majority of you are unaware of the current civil war going on in India and unaware of all of the problems there. As soon as you have spoken at length with political activists from India, you can talk to me about how glorious India is!

I'm sorry, but Communism is just another dead religion, dude-

Tell that to the millions of comrades around the globe who still fight for freedom.

Go on, tell them! Maybe, if you're lucky, they'll all be struck with the realization that their dreams and aspirations for a society based on universal equality are "childish", and then they'll all put down their arms, head on home and thank Argh for showing them the light of complacency and "settling" and the evils of struggling for a better world.

I've got nothing else to say to you, and if I see you in the street, understand why I'll relentlessly punch you in the face repeatedly, and from here, don't bother asking me for favors anymore, ever.

LOL! I'm childish, and you're the one threatening to beat me on the street like you're some fucking 13 year old Yahoo Chat pedophile haxx0rez? Ahahahha. Cry me a river, you pathetic tool. I hope each and every one of your serving family members gets beheaded and their body burned and dragged behind a Toyota pickup truck all the way from Mosul to Basra until there's nothing left but a bloody sack of bone and flesh with some rope tied to it!

Oh, was that harsh of me? Was it? I don't know. Maybe I AM an attention whore!

Directing hate at soldiers is mis-directed.

You have to ask yourself: why do people, given the choice, volunteer for service? Why would they risk life and limb to serve in the armed forces?

Basically your entire post boiled down to "You shouldn't hurt soldiers. I have no idea why they join the military but I do know that violence is wrong." or something like that. Anyway. I've never misdirected any hate at soldiers. My grandfather was a soldier. He landed on D-Day and got a piece of rocket shrapnel lodged into his skull (and you can still see it today ewww!) so obviously I'm not a fucking idiot who's going to say people like my grandfather should be shot. For the most part, military personelle are innocents who are simply following orders, and have been molded to do so without question. I don't blame every German soldier for what the Nazi's did.

However, they are still the armed forces of a government who's policies I strongly disagree with and I hold no reservations about meeting force with force. Comrades and innocents in Iraq are dying by the hundreds daily, in their homes while they sleep, while driving to the store. If I were truely as evil as you "say" I am I would be saying that everyone should strap bombs to themselves and launch suicide attacks against any image of American imperialism.

Anyway this is a waste of time. Rather than ry to explain myself, I think I'd rather simply enrage people with highly controversial remarks like the one directed at LS. That's much more fun.

Post by **jcnossen** » 28 Nov 2006, 13:51

Tell that to the millions of comrades around the globe who still fight for freedom.

Such as, north korea? There has not been any succesful implementation of communism ever...

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 28 Nov 2006, 14:02

You are correct, sir! I agree with you whole-heartedly! There has NOT been a successful Communist movement, because they have all focused on Stalinist "socialism in one country", ignoring the simplistic reality that Communism can not exist unless every last vestige of capitalism is eradicated. A Communist system is one based on equality and the abolition of a person's ability to exploit another, something that can only exist on a global scale, for as long as capitalist bastions exist there will always exist the overwhelming pressure of exploitation and oppression that comes with it. And, to back up your point about North Korea, it is a very unfortunate reality that Communism is susceptible to the highest degree to greed and corruption, and relies upon a strong universal foundation in order for it to be successful. That isn't to say that Capitalism is different, but rather that Capitalism thrives on such human traits as greed and selfishness and is only strengthened by the corruption that weakens Communism. North Korea is a fascist state. Nobody with any sense in him can disagree with that.

Anyway, I'd just like to point out that since opening this thread I have been violently internet-attacked by all manners of threats and belittlement, from physical threats to claims I am "childish" or "dellusional", simply for posting my beliefs, which contradict others, and at the same time I'm accused of being a "fascist". Oh how I love the contradiction!

Wolf-In-Exile · Post by **Wolf-In-Exile** » 28 Nov 2006, 14:06

if a soldier believes an order to be illegal he has the right to say no.

Nuremberg isn't a directly applicable example, since it tried high-ranking German military personnel for war crimes.

Sure, the trial didn't accept "I was just following orders" as a valid excuse, but position and rank is the keyword here; afaik there weren't any of these officer's subordinates being tried.

For the most part, military personelle are innocents who are simply following orders, and have been molded to do so without question. I don't blame every German soldier for what the Nazi's did.

Well, the contents of your first post doesn't give me that impression, which is why I said what I said.

If you really want to protest the war, you should launch a mortar attack against the nearest military base, or snipe military personelle with a hunting rifle, or set an explosive along a road frequented by military vehicles and bomb a convoy, toss a bottle of burning gasoline into a recruiting center. That is protesting a war.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 28 Nov 2006, 14:06

physical threats? from who? and are you reffering to this thread or people saying things to you outside of it?

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 28 Nov 2006, 14:09

jcnossen wrote:
Tell that to the millions of comrades around the globe who still fight for freedom.
Such as, north korea? There has not been any succesful implementation of communism ever...

Not yet, but I think that was his point.

SpikedHelmet wrote:Anyway this is a waste of time. Rather than ry to explain myself, I think I'd rather simply enrage people with highly controversial remarks like the one directed at LS. That's much more fun.

You people know that ignoring him and not posting will make you the winner?

By the way I was quite similar in behaviour some years ago (4 or 5), though I didn't believe in communism (and never will). I'm all for the equality thing but in a way that works.

I hope you don't "teach" your kid the same crap and take it's freedom by deciding what's best for it yourself (dunno if it's a boy or girl).

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 28 Nov 2006, 14:17

Then how can you say you were "quite similar" if you weren't even a Communist, let alone anything close to what I am? Sounds more like you're attempting to "disarm" my legitimacy by evoking some sense of superiority over me.

And what's best for my kid is living in a world where he won't be prejudiced against because of his skin colour and won't be held back because of his class. Can you guarantee that world for him in this system?

Well, the contents of your first post doesn't give me that impression,

Quite frankly you have only ourself to blame for making grandiose assumptions of me based on a single fucking internet post. You never bothered asking about the intricacies of my beliefs or anything of the sort. Rather, you judged me, as you probably do everyone else, based on woefully inadequate information.

physical threats? from who?

if I see you in the street, understand why I'll relentlessly punch you in the face repeatedly

Obviously I'm not stupid enough to take him seriously (for all accounts he seems like he might be 16 or so), but the simple fact that someone can be so enraged as to act like a complete ass-hat and throw vague threats of violence around the internet based on my beliefs is utterly contemptuous and a very good indication of the reactionary bullshit that must be dealt with. I'm willing to bet that LS subscribes to those crazy nut-job right-wingers that run up and down the streets screaming about "liberal jewish conspiracies" and all of that stupidity.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 28 Nov 2006, 14:47

SpikedHelmet wrote:Communism can not exist unless every last vestige of capitalism is eradicated.

If this is true then comunism is just retarded. Any system that requires the destruction of all opposing systems of human behavior to work can't possibly be good. It's just another grass is greener lie from the darkness. All systems worth pursing are flexible to the necessities of outside systems. I honestly don't understand what the fuck is wrong with people...

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 28 Nov 2006, 15:05

You've given absolutely no material evidence, or even an iota of intellectual basis for that claim. Care to elaborate, or are you content with merely believing that because.. well, you're stupid?

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 28 Nov 2006, 15:36

You just called for the total destruction of capitalism. You can't totally destroy capitalism without completely displacing the international economy. You can't completely displace the international economy without MASSIVE chaos and destruction. This in turn will piss off the majority of the world immensely and cause you immense resistance effectively meaning global war, quite likely on the nuclear level. Not to mention that every other governing system that would like to via for power and is currently being repressed by capitalism would immediately jockey for position at the fall, Islam, anarchists, various other religious organizations and fascist governments, effectively meaning that even if the capitalists put up little or no fight the communists would have to defeat at least 10 other vieing powers. Islam which is insanely massive and has very questionable ethics when it comes to their stance in the global arena.

Any system that requires the destruction of capitalism is effectively promoting the destruction of the world and working towards the goal of making humanity a war for at least the next 100 years. There is no alternative, capitalism isn't something you can just unplug and replace with an alternative seamlessly. Without capitalist based trade most of Europe would be starving to death right now.

The communist system in theory has it's merits, but if you truly believe that it can only succeed at the systematic destruction of capitalism on a global scale, then for no other reason as that is not peacefully possible comunism is basically pure evil. Anyone can argue that they have an idea for the perfect world and that if the whole world just thought the way they did then everything would be perfect. The fact of the matter is that those kind of theories are a dime a dozen. The only improvement the world can make is improvement gently guiding the current systems we have in the direction we need them to go. I'm quite liberal socialist in my own ideologies, the idea of an ideal communist world sounds great, but I realize that the destruction of an existing government structure and the total replacement of it with another isn't possible in a peaceful manner.

Even if it were to eventually happen, it isn't like communist ideology isn't without problem at all either. It suffers from all the same problems capitalism does, they just express in different ways.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 28 Nov 2006, 15:51

SpikedHelmet wrote:Then how can you say you were "quite similar" if you weren't even a Communist, let alone anything close to what I am?

Provocating, unecessary agressive and so on. You don't have to believe in communism to be full blown asshole.

MrNubyagi · Post by **MrNubyagi** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:06

discriminatingly banned by decimator

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:19

You have no idea how the world works there, do you...

Capitalism can't be brought down because the money flow that keeps society running smoothly is integrated irremovably into capitalistic systemic structures due to globalization. If your city/town were to cut yourself off from the outside world right now you would all starve to death, or at very least be looting and killing each other to survive. The fact of the matter is that every connection you have to the outside world is run and maintained by a company or corporation that is capitalist. The truck drivers and train drivers who bring food in from other parts of the country are paid by a capitalist company, your internet service, your phone service, in many places the electric and water, and in America the health service. Simply put it's impossible to forcefully remove capitalism and keep all those structures moving just as smoothly at the same time, and then as soon as you do remove capitalism, every other power seeking entity steps up an vias for the position to replace it, it's not like comunism is the second place default.

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:20

Well look at you! Aren't you the little red menace!

Essentially, for every advantage one person gets, there are 5 people who get disadvantaged.

You're right Swift, you can't totally destroy capitalism, and your statement boils down to "you can't destroy a house without destroying its foundation".

Ever heard of the dictatorship of the masses? Every serious communist has resolved himself to accepting that the transition from capitalism to socialism and then communism will necessarily be a bloody, violent affair -- but no more violent than the perpetual existance of capitalism and the conditions capitalism has forced upon the vast, vast majority of people in this world.

It [communism] suffers from all the same problems capitalism does

I find this statement accurately sums up the fact that you know very little about communism, capitalism, or the relations of production and capital.

Post by **jcnossen** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:22

lol @ capitalist pig...
you people seem to have no clue whatsoever about efficiency, economics or anything that makes actual societies run. Capitalism is one of the best ways to motivate people to work and increases efficiency and wealth overall. Poor countries and people are more a result of corrupt power structures and unfair trade regulations, not because of capitalism

Neuralize · Post by **Neuralize** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:30

Until humans have the exact same genes and are all raised the exact same way and have the exact same experiences, any chance for a utopian society is pretty much lost.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:38

At least the Amish make decent cheese.

+1

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 28 Nov 2006, 16:41

jcnossen: I disagree. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of effective work being done in this capitalist society and the dividends to the general population. In theory our computerized and robotic systems of today should make the basic living costs so low that global poverty should have been solved long ago and virtually everyone should be living in the lap of luxury. In practice it's fairly obvious that things are hardly better then they have ever been except for a select few.

Spiked: every serious communist is obviously a over the edge. You're religious fanatics, nothing more. You're ideals are no more pure or plausible then the ideals of any other person. Every fanatic Muslim believes full heartedly that the only way to make the world a perfect place under god is to irradiate ever non Muslim on earth, even though every example of Muslim government can quickly be shown to be just as problematic as every other governmental system ever. I'm not even going to mince words here, any theory or philosophy that requires mass destruction to succeed is bullshit. I've recearhed explored and pondered hundreds of them, they are all the same thing, fundamentally flawed simply because they can't possible be realized without immense and unacceptable hypocracy. Mass destruction for any ends is objectively evil.

Communism can't possibly fix the fundamental problem in humanity, which is that HUMANS ARE FLAWED. Capitalism can't fix this, no religion we know can fix this. No system of any kind can fix this fundamental stumbling block that will degrade every system of government and organization with equal vigor and destructiveness. For communism to work better then capitalism it needs to assume that this stumbling block does not exist, this is just ignorant.

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REAL war protest