CA and the primary mod
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Re: CA and the primary mod
Would be interesting to see what would happen if CA got a very good and easy to start up sp campaign.
Re: CA and the primary mod
This is all planned.. however eveh with current 9 active developers and many contributors its a lot of work..
Active development currently focuses on:
- model replacement
- effect standardization and improvement
- performance optimization
- better GUI/menus (cascading)
- cadownloader and springie for linux
- new experimental unit abilities (underground units)
- new unit designs and lvl2 vs lvl1 balance
Active development currently focuses on:
- model replacement
- effect standardization and improvement
- performance optimization
- better GUI/menus (cascading)
- cadownloader and springie for linux
- new experimental unit abilities (underground units)
- new unit designs and lvl2 vs lvl1 balance
Re: CA and the primary mod
Keep up the good work guys, CA is lovely.
Re: CA and the primary mod
tom you sexy beast where have you been?
Re: CA and the primary mod
CA pros:
Nicer GUI
More user-friendly
More noob-friendly
Nicer effects
Several remodels(I'm not a huge fan of them, as they depart to much from the TA style, but then again, CA is trying to be different than TA. :/)
BA pros:
BALANCE
Player base
Faithful to TA(It's because of this that I think, even if CA DOES take over the majority, BA will never die, simply because it stuck to TA, which is probably the biggest reason Spring exists, and why a few new players keep coming)
CA cons:
It's not TA. And yet, it IS TA. This is a problem. They say it's a work in progress to depart from TA, but I say they need to stop releasing until they have made something that's not an unbalanced version of TA with a ****ed up build tree.
Lack of balance. HUGE problem. Also, the balance is constantly changing with releases that are way to frequent. Which brings me to the next one.
To many/to close updates. Not only is this annoying, but it's part of the reason the balance is so bad. They need to hold off, watch the way games play out, then adjust the balance accordingly, then over the course of a week or two(At least) test the changes, THEN release it. Then, watch the way games play out for a week or two, and adjust again. It looks like they're following this pattern right now, but instead of letting it work out over a week or two they put out two updates in a day. This is a huge hassle for everyone who has to download it again, and it's setting itself into a vicious cycle where the changes are badly thought out, and as a result another update has to be rushed to fix it, then another for that, and so forth.
Confusing, unintuitive, badly designed build hierarchy. The whole 'economy' thing, while a neat idea, is badly executed. It needs rethinking IMO.
It's like, alpha alpha beta. And yet, they keep advertising it and spamming the lobby with crap about it. Wait till it's finished to try and get everyone to play it, c'mon, or at least tell them that it is VERY VERY BETA, and is not even close to finished and is very badly balanced. Besides, it's well-known enough, that if they want to try something new they'll download it. No need to spam it.
BA cons:
Crappy effects
No apparent effort to update models
Boring, ugly GUI
And lack of tool-tips/hints for new users.
In a nutshell, CA has a lot of things going for it, and a lot of other mods could follow that example. On the other hand, it's not TA, and it's FAR from finished.
So, take a hint people, and stop acting like this is a finished product and spamming the lobby with it. And maybe make PROPER releases. They have slowed down, but they're still WAY to close together. They shouldn't be more than bi-weekly, preferably monthly. For the sake of the players and for the sake of thinking through the changes properly.
Bleh, I went on longer than I meant to, but you get the point.
Nicer GUI
More user-friendly
More noob-friendly
Nicer effects
Several remodels(I'm not a huge fan of them, as they depart to much from the TA style, but then again, CA is trying to be different than TA. :/)
BA pros:
BALANCE
Player base
Faithful to TA(It's because of this that I think, even if CA DOES take over the majority, BA will never die, simply because it stuck to TA, which is probably the biggest reason Spring exists, and why a few new players keep coming)
CA cons:
It's not TA. And yet, it IS TA. This is a problem. They say it's a work in progress to depart from TA, but I say they need to stop releasing until they have made something that's not an unbalanced version of TA with a ****ed up build tree.
Lack of balance. HUGE problem. Also, the balance is constantly changing with releases that are way to frequent. Which brings me to the next one.
To many/to close updates. Not only is this annoying, but it's part of the reason the balance is so bad. They need to hold off, watch the way games play out, then adjust the balance accordingly, then over the course of a week or two(At least) test the changes, THEN release it. Then, watch the way games play out for a week or two, and adjust again. It looks like they're following this pattern right now, but instead of letting it work out over a week or two they put out two updates in a day. This is a huge hassle for everyone who has to download it again, and it's setting itself into a vicious cycle where the changes are badly thought out, and as a result another update has to be rushed to fix it, then another for that, and so forth.
Confusing, unintuitive, badly designed build hierarchy. The whole 'economy' thing, while a neat idea, is badly executed. It needs rethinking IMO.
It's like, alpha alpha beta. And yet, they keep advertising it and spamming the lobby with crap about it. Wait till it's finished to try and get everyone to play it, c'mon, or at least tell them that it is VERY VERY BETA, and is not even close to finished and is very badly balanced. Besides, it's well-known enough, that if they want to try something new they'll download it. No need to spam it.
BA cons:
Crappy effects
No apparent effort to update models
Boring, ugly GUI
And lack of tool-tips/hints for new users.
In a nutshell, CA has a lot of things going for it, and a lot of other mods could follow that example. On the other hand, it's not TA, and it's FAR from finished.
So, take a hint people, and stop acting like this is a finished product and spamming the lobby with it. And maybe make PROPER releases. They have slowed down, but they're still WAY to close together. They shouldn't be more than bi-weekly, preferably monthly. For the sake of the players and for the sake of thinking through the changes properly.
Bleh, I went on longer than I meant to, but you get the point.
Re: CA and the primary mod
Balance changing constantly? Excuse me but during last 2 months there were no balance changes..
Past 2-3 months changes were only effects updates and some lua tweaks, so what exactly is in your opinnion "confusing" or badly thought-out in it?
How long are you following/playing CA? What is your ingame name? I havent seen you in any games.
What exactly is "unbalanced"? There are 3 suspected problems in issue tracker all are being observed and tested extensively in 1v1 and team games before actions are taken.
And what do you mean "constantly redownloading"? Are you using downloader? Huge effort has been put into whole updating infrastructure. It takes only 5-10s to update CA to next version..
And there are 3 different updaters so there is no excuse not to use ofne of them.
Past 2-3 months changes were only effects updates and some lua tweaks, so what exactly is in your opinnion "confusing" or badly thought-out in it?
How long are you following/playing CA? What is your ingame name? I havent seen you in any games.
What exactly is "unbalanced"? There are 3 suspected problems in issue tracker all are being observed and tested extensively in 1v1 and team games before actions are taken.
And what do you mean "constantly redownloading"? Are you using downloader? Huge effort has been put into whole updating infrastructure. It takes only 5-10s to update CA to next version..
And there are 3 different updaters so there is no excuse not to use ofne of them.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Re: CA and the primary mod
Didn't you completely rework a couple units a few weeks ago? That's a major balance change.
That being said... I wouldn't necessarily say that CA balance is really all that worse than BA balance. Kbots vs vech are much better in CA, and while the vech vs vech game isn't as much fun, kbot vs kbot is much more balanced IMO than BA's equivalent. T2 units are actually sensically powered in CA. I don't really have an opinion on CA sea or air.
That being said... I wouldn't necessarily say that CA balance is really all that worse than BA balance. Kbots vs vech are much better in CA, and while the vech vs vech game isn't as much fun, kbot vs kbot is much more balanced IMO than BA's equivalent. T2 units are actually sensically powered in CA. I don't really have an opinion on CA sea or air.
Re: CA and the primary mod
kbots are really really overpowered in ca.
Re: CA and the primary mod
look we have saktoth, THE BEST CA PLAYER, balacning, we don't need any of your NOOB suggestionsDay wrote:kbots are really really overpowered in ca.
Re: CA and the primary mod
CA has more than 8 balanced units which is more than BA has
vehicles r getting a looking into soon anywayz
vehicles r good on team games and big maps but its troo kbots r superior in small 1v1's
The balance is not wrong at all sure it needs tweaking but kbot tier 1 vs kbot tier 2 balance feels very good atm and i think CA is achieving its goal of tier 2 suplementing tier 1 and being a different factory choice (its even a viable start in team games) rather than tier 2 totally obsoleting tier 1
a few areas need work like vehicle balance but time is being taken to make the right moves with vehicles to make them more fun and also rebalance tier 2 vehicle
and yes CA hasnt had major changes in nearly 2 months
vehicles r getting a looking into soon anywayz
vehicles r good on team games and big maps but its troo kbots r superior in small 1v1's
The balance is not wrong at all sure it needs tweaking but kbot tier 1 vs kbot tier 2 balance feels very good atm and i think CA is achieving its goal of tier 2 suplementing tier 1 and being a different factory choice (its even a viable start in team games) rather than tier 2 totally obsoleting tier 1
a few areas need work like vehicle balance but time is being taken to make the right moves with vehicles to make them more fun and also rebalance tier 2 vehicle
and yes CA hasnt had major changes in nearly 2 months
Re: CA and the primary mod
I dont think its been two months.
No, there have been balance changes- the Recluse and Penetrator fairly recently. T1 has been pretty stable for a very long time (But still needs more work!), t2 is still undergoing revision.
Still the model described by Hobo Joe is exactly what we are doing. With the Stables, our updates are roughly weekly and our balance updates are weeks apart with extensive testing and 'settling in periods'. We've been doing this for months now.
However, other aspects of the mod, such as all the lua, effects, etc, continue to be upgraded, tweaked, and bugfixed.
It is not. No land-firing air weapons except samson (Scout boat, pelican, defender, jethro, all used to fire at land), beamlasers rather than beamweapons, a bunch of new units and re-rolls. Things like labs that can be reliably assisted, faster con opening times and nanotowers totally changes the economic landscape- not to mention units shooting through eachother.
BA is good mod but its not faithful to TA. Play Classic Annihilation some time. Its totally different in so many areas and thats ignoring the differences the spring engine imposes.
. His games and feedback have been quite valuable even though he hasnt played much or explored the tech tree entirely. Im glad to be seeing higher calibre players playing CA and can only hope that this brings a new level of refinement in balance and gameplay.
No, there have been balance changes- the Recluse and Penetrator fairly recently. T1 has been pretty stable for a very long time (But still needs more work!), t2 is still undergoing revision.
Still the model described by Hobo Joe is exactly what we are doing. With the Stables, our updates are roughly weekly and our balance updates are weeks apart with extensive testing and 'settling in periods'. We've been doing this for months now.
However, other aspects of the mod, such as all the lua, effects, etc, continue to be upgraded, tweaked, and bugfixed.
People need to stop saying this. You only think that because you have fuzzy recolections of TA and played BA first, assuming it was the same.Faithful to TA
It is not. No land-firing air weapons except samson (Scout boat, pelican, defender, jethro, all used to fire at land), beamlasers rather than beamweapons, a bunch of new units and re-rolls. Things like labs that can be reliably assisted, faster con opening times and nanotowers totally changes the economic landscape- not to mention units shooting through eachother.
BA is good mod but its not faithful to TA. Play Classic Annihilation some time. Its totally different in so many areas and thats ignoring the differences the spring engine imposes.
The whole of spring is 'beta'. CA plays quite well, and in areas we are innovating we can only ensure the game stays fun if its being played. All the devs actively play the game, its where we get our ideas.It's like, alpha alpha beta. And yet, they keep advertising it and spamming the lobby with crap about it.
Well, Day is playing CA now so obviously i cant claim that anymorelook we have saktoth, THE BEST CA PLAYER, balacning, we don't need any of your NOOB suggestions
. His games and feedback have been quite valuable even though he hasnt played much or explored the tech tree entirely. Im glad to be seeing higher calibre players playing CA and can only hope that this brings a new level of refinement in balance and gameplay.Its the general consensus that kbots are stronger, yeah, especially on the smaller maps typically played in 1v1. On larger maps the vehicles speed comes into play and kbots have a hard time competing, and their early rush, expansion, and fast start is less significant with all that ground to cover. That being said, id rather have fac choice be based more on strategy and preference than dictated by map type. So this still needs to be addressed.kbots are really really overpowered in ca.
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[Krogoth86]
- Posts: 1176
- Joined: 23 Aug 2007, 19:46
Re: CA and the primary mod
Well as this has become a balance discussion I'd like to ask a question:
When planning MA and looking at Arm's T2 tanks I noticed that some mods like CA or AA use the Mumbo. I yet have to understand what this tank shall be good for except charging him into an enemy group as EMP-bomb...
I mean when looking at THIS to my mind it doesn't really have other attributes than the EMP explosion which make it superior to a Stumpy or Bulldog. Especially as I've just checked a pretty recent version and it seems the Mumbo even deals just 300 dps now while keeping its price and health. Maybe you could explain to me what it shall be good for and if it's just about the EMP feature why don't you make a rolling bomb of it instead of paying precious ressources for rather useless weapons'n'stuff...
When planning MA and looking at Arm's T2 tanks I noticed that some mods like CA or AA use the Mumbo. I yet have to understand what this tank shall be good for except charging him into an enemy group as EMP-bomb...
I mean when looking at THIS to my mind it doesn't really have other attributes than the EMP explosion which make it superior to a Stumpy or Bulldog. Especially as I've just checked a pretty recent version and it seems the Mumbo even deals just 300 dps now while keeping its price and health. Maybe you could explain to me what it shall be good for and if it's just about the EMP feature why don't you make a rolling bomb of it instead of paying precious ressources for rather useless weapons'n'stuff...
Re: CA and the primary mod
[quote="Saktoth"]The whole of spring is 'beta'. CA plays quite well, and in areas we are innovating we can only ensure the game stays fun if its being played. All the devs actively play the game, its where we get our ideas.
That's a bit of a generalization. BA is pretty much a finished project.
On top of what I mentioned, one of the biggest problem with trying to spread an unfinished product it now you have a relatively large playerbase, so if you were to make any large changes(Something that is VERY necessary during game development), you would have a mob of angry fans after you. As a result, the devs wouldn't want to make huge changes, potentially making a much lower quality final product.
As to your comments about being faithful to TA: I know it's changed a lot. The biggest being the addition of custom units, but in most cases it was done for the best in order to balance properly.
The main thing is that it plays like TA. Old strategies are still perfectly viable, all the old units are almost exactly the same as they used to be, and the build tree is perfectly intact.
That's a bit of a generalization. BA is pretty much a finished project.
On top of what I mentioned, one of the biggest problem with trying to spread an unfinished product it now you have a relatively large playerbase, so if you were to make any large changes(Something that is VERY necessary during game development), you would have a mob of angry fans after you. As a result, the devs wouldn't want to make huge changes, potentially making a much lower quality final product.
As to your comments about being faithful to TA: I know it's changed a lot. The biggest being the addition of custom units, but in most cases it was done for the best in order to balance properly.
The main thing is that it plays like TA. Old strategies are still perfectly viable, all the old units are almost exactly the same as they used to be, and the build tree is perfectly intact.
Re: CA and the primary mod
BA isn't a finished product - you can't distribute it freely. While you should be, for something that you consider your own.
Re: CA and the primary mod
And before someone gets really mad at me...
I'm not trying to bash CA. I don't hate them all for no real reason. I personally am not a fan of the mod, but I'm trying to unbiased and provide objective feedback.
For example, what I said about releasing an unfinished product would stand for anything, it's simply risky to do that, and can yield bad results.
I'm not trying to bash CA. I don't hate them all for no real reason. I personally am not a fan of the mod, but I'm trying to unbiased and provide objective feedback.
For example, what I said about releasing an unfinished product would stand for anything, it's simply risky to do that, and can yield bad results.
Re: CA and the primary mod
Seriously .. in open source, only "dead" projects are "finished".
Everything alive is consntly evolving/improving. There is no end.
In the project the size of mod you can always find something to improve or extend.
You seem to be still very new to this community (judging by ingame minutes) but trust me, BA balance changes with pretty much every update.
Everything alive is consntly evolving/improving. There is no end.
In the project the size of mod you can always find something to improve or extend.
You seem to be still very new to this community (judging by ingame minutes) but trust me, BA balance changes with pretty much every update.
Re: CA and the primary mod
There haven't been any large BA balance changes for several months.Licho wrote:Seriously .. in open source, only "dead" projects are "finished".
Everything alive is consntly evolving/improving. There is no end.
In the project the size of mod you can always find something to improve or extend.
You seem to be still very new to this community (judging by ingame minutes) but trust me, BA balance changes with pretty much every update.
And I know that things are always getting updated. But BA is just to a point where people can put it out and say that it's not beta or anything. It's more or less 'finished' by gameplay standards.
Re: CA and the primary mod
Yes.
It's done, finished, dying. No more improvements, people will get bored, mods that are actively working on improving the gameplay are taking over.
You're quite right
It's done, finished, dying. No more improvements, people will get bored, mods that are actively working on improving the gameplay are taking over.
You're quite right
Re: CA and the primary mod
Otherside, please confine your speech to things that you know or understand appreciably well.
The Mumbo is an incredibly effective raider at an exorbitant price. Good DPS, solid speed, fair maneuverability, and the bonus of a nice EMP explosion if you can't micro away from enemy fire. A niche unit, somewhere between riot and raid.
The Mumbo is an incredibly effective raider at an exorbitant price. Good DPS, solid speed, fair maneuverability, and the bonus of a nice EMP explosion if you can't micro away from enemy fire. A niche unit, somewhere between riot and raid.