Absolute Annihilation 2.11

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 20 Aug 2006, 08:38

Doublepost to snag reply #2,000

Buggi · Post by **Buggi** » 20 Aug 2006, 08:46

OH, you doubled for #2000? Wow you get the SPECIAL prize. The surpreme spam poster trophy of 2006!

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 20 Aug 2006, 08:50

arrrgh

dragon you took my posts entirely out of context

Graah, I don't feel like explaining it again.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 20 Aug 2006, 11:17

By simply tacking on a beefed-up jeothro, you inch closer to making l1 obsolete.

It dosen't matter really, since you need about 2 and ├é┬¢ or sometimes 3 times more jethros to shoot down a brawler swarm. I did examples WAYYY back, and you can go dig it up if you really want to. we NEED those level 2 bots, so we get a cost effective way for countering air when not being vechiles. Every other factory gets it, and i do NOT want to go thourth 2 levels of tech tree just to get 1 unit i need. Vechiles are alredy usefull enoguth...

Acidd_UK · Post by **Acidd_UK** » 20 Aug 2006, 11:35

Surely 3 jethros are far cheaper than 1 brawler? I.e. they are cost effective...

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 20 Aug 2006, 12:22

Acidd_UK wrote:Surely 3 jethros are far cheaper than 1 brawler? I.e. they are cost effective...

Acording to 1.46 units stats (prove me wrong if i am >.>). Metal cost jethro: 115 metal cost brawler: 294 Energy is 1000 vs 5700.

So no, not by a great deal.
Besides, it's very clumpsy and it looks awful. 10 brawlers = 30 jethros, which bump into one another.

You can check out more detailed explenation and 2 page rambles if you dig around in the thread >.>

BoredJoe · Post by **BoredJoe** » 20 Aug 2006, 15:47

the only lvl 2 stuff which is unbalanced atm is the maverick- no amount of lvl 1 spam can beat a mav!

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 20 Aug 2006, 15:52

Not if I micro it! HAHAHAH! I loved those things....

I would dodge and weave and be like shootin and stuff!

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 20 Aug 2006, 16:31

yup, maverick is the only ground balance issue tbh.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 20 Aug 2006, 16:37

Forboding Angel wrote:@egar, if what #2 of what pxtl suggested was done, then the lv2 factories could be made MUCH cheaper (once again, this is the way that EE does it).

However as it is, lv2 is so much better than lv1, it completely dominates lv1 units.

Um. Yes and no. I do acknowledge that making L2 cheaper and making L2 units worse would do that. But wasn't L2 in EE pretty useless for a very long time? (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the impression I got.) That strikes me as very difficult to balance.

But L2 does not completely dominate L1. A handful of L2 units won't be enough to stop a massive L1 assault (except for the Mav, which appears to be a problem). And even basic L1 units remain useful after you've switched to L2 for your main combat. Most big, slow units are very vulnerable to swarms. And the L1 units work pretty well as a cheap back-up for your defences...

Acidd_UK · Post by **Acidd_UK** » 20 Aug 2006, 16:37

Kixxe wrote:Acording to 1.46 units stats (prove me wrong if i am >.>). Metal cost jethro: 115 metal cost brawler: 294 Energy is 1000 vs 5700.

Yeah ok they are similar cost for metal, but brawler is 2x as expensive in energy and 2x cost in buildtime as well - given it's only a level 1 unit I'd say it's a pretty good counter to brawlers. Especially since 3v1 at least one of the jethros will survive, so it's actually cheaper in terms of the 'big picture'. I think this is a good way to show air is pretty balanced...

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 20 Aug 2006, 16:39

Egarwaen wrote:
Forboding Angel wrote:@egar, if what #2 of what pxtl suggested was done, then the lv2 factories could be made MUCH cheaper (once again, this is the way that EE does it).

However as it is, lv2 is so much better than lv1, it completely dominates lv1 units.
Um. Yes and no. I do acknowledge that making L2 cheaper and making L2 units worse would do that. But wasn't L2 in EE pretty useless for a very long time? (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the impression I got.) That strikes me as very difficult to balance.

But L2 does not completely dominate L1. A handful of L2 units won't be enough to stop a massive L1 assault (except for the Mav, which appears to be a problem). And even basic L1 units remain useful after you've switched to L2 for your main combat. Most big, slow units are very vulnerable to swarms. And the L1 units work pretty well as a cheap back-up for your defences...

QFT

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 20 Aug 2006, 16:57

Acidd_UK wrote:Yeah ok they are similar cost for metal, but brawler is 2x as expensive in energy and 2x cost in buildtime as well - given it's only a level 1 unit I'd say it's a pretty good counter to brawlers. Especially since 3v1 at least one of the jethros will survive, so it's actually cheaper in terms of the 'big picture'. I think this is a good way to show air is pretty balanced...

Sigh, i guess i have to dig it up myself i guess... AHA! there we go!

Kixxe wrote: E is average, cuz i won't swicth forward and back to note a 200 E diffrence >.>
All arm units

Brawler:M:294 E:5000
Mobile Flakker:M:425 E:8000
Jethro: M:115 E:1000

Now, lets see. 20 brawlers are 5880 metal, and 55 Jethros are 6325. This should kill a brawler (I think) since 50 kills all except 3. now 7 mobile flakker on the other hand costs 2975, which is MUCH more cost effective.

Also, for spice:

Kixxe wrote:I acully tested a litthe.

1 Brawlie kills 1 jethro(duh)
1 Brawlie kills 2 jethro's (Small margin, but still. Can work either way.)

But what about bigger swarms?
20 Brawlers kills 20 jethros
20 brawlers kills 30 Jethros
20 Brawlers kills 50 jethros (again, small margin, but still)

So, to defend myself agsint a moderate, 20 brawler swarm, i need 50+ jethros. Or about 7 Flak tanks. ( i did a shitload of testing there also, but it's hard to tell which is the 10 flak screen or the 6 flak screen)

The reason i'm comparing mobile AA is because this is an offensive situation. If one uses brawlers as defence, it's not possible to attack without flak guns support unless you can micro a shitload of jethros on the frontline with your troops.

And i never DID get my answer to this question.

Kixxe... again wrote: Now, i'll ask again. What reson do you have agsint a Level 2 AA K-bot BESIDES making vechiles a better choice?

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:13

Gawd you people type fast.

Speedmetal is a cancer. It's insidious. It turns otherwise good players into bad ones who are useless except on speedmetal. These players are no longer playing the same game as the rest of us and might as well not even be here - so if they leave or play a different mod, it's no loss. I hear rumors that they're emo, too.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:14

EMO!? KILL THE FUCKIN EMOS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNMSHxH7JcQ

Sorry, needed a violent song...

Edit: Every one must be stunned speechless

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:30

othe maps could be killed as well such as concept maps with only a few metal spots but those give out a high output, restricting gameplay is bad IMO.

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:32

IF speedmetalers are emo, its personal! If not, then I could care less, I'll smoke em on real maps when they come out of their games...

Anyhow, I haven't played AA in forever, I might get on today and find any imbas, if I ever get on the good comp

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:39

Maverick, maverick... good movie.

Maverick is meant, in my mind, to be a very good anti-l2 unit. As people have mentioned, it is superb against single powerful L2/L3 units, like goliaths, krogoths, etc. Part of the problem here is that a LOT of things are very good against single L2 units, since in general these units aren't very cost-effective or as powerful as they should rightly be, or are otherwise just not quite right.

I'm going to work on that a bit, but only with small adjustments which should be mostly unnoticable by themselves but when gathered together will make things work better. Small changes, so don't panic. For instance, vehicles faster with more HP (+5% or so to each). This won't have a major influence on battles like one peewee versus one flash, but in large scale battles it will mean that vehicles will get there faster and be the unit of choice of assault, very naturally. Also, L1 and L2 vehicle plants will be made somewhat cheaper to make this tech line more attractive.

I'm also considering further cost reductions to advanced fusions, making them perhaps only 25% more expensive than regular fusions but giving 50% greater output. This would only be available to vehicles.

For mavericks, I was thinking about reducing their fire rate but giving them a much higher damage output. They'd be the weapon of choice for close combat against L1 but especially L2, and arm doesn't really have anything in L2 that's really good at that kind of thing.

I'll also be making more efforts into differentiating the sides, especially at tech 3.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:39

NOiZE wrote:othe maps could be killed as well such as concept maps with only a few metal spots but those give out a high output, restricting gameplay is bad IMO.

In order to match SpeedMetal, it'd have to be 25+ on a single mex, wouldn't it? I think that would break AA's gameplay pretty badly anyway.

The issue here is that the cost/benefit of AA's mexes (and all other metal costs) is balanced based on "OTA-ish" metal income. Which means each mex has a range from about 0.9 to about 6-8.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 20 Aug 2006, 17:43

Egarwaen wrote:
NOiZE wrote:othe maps could be killed as well such as concept maps with only a few metal spots but those give out a high output, restricting gameplay is bad IMO.
In order to match SpeedMetal, it'd have to be 25+ on a single mex, wouldn't it? I think that would break AA's gameplay pretty badly anyway.

The issue here is that the cost/benefit of AA's mexes (and all other metal costs) is balanced based on "OTA-ish" metal income. Which means each mex has a range from about 0.9 to about 6-8.

What about a map with 4 spots?

1 for each player... it will have unique gameplay! i see no reason to limit gameplay because of speedmetal, i mean come one, grow up!

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Absolute Annihilation 2.11