map making wiki blabla

[FLOZi]

the way I see it is there are a few different types of documentation
* reference/factual/dry
* howto/guide/tutorial
* tips/advice

A mix of these ways would cover most people's needs.

I agree. I might limit it to only 2 even;

• Reference - This is stuff like the Lua API pages, and my Defs and gamedata pages. These pages should deal with facts only and strictly be devoid of opinion and 'personality'. Writing in the 1st person is a big nono.
• Tutorial - These can be much more relaxed, engaging and friendly. Reflect the writers' opinion (but make it clear as such) and personality. Tips and advice can probably be slotted in here?

It's the difference between a text book and a personal tutor. One actively instructs you and helps you to learn; the other is reference material for when you can't remember something.

@gajop:

I agree that would be a powerful tool. However, it is unlikely to ever fully replace the existing means, and is ultimately a long-term project regardless; the wiki needs to reflect the current tool-chain.

Also I banned Emmanuel for 1 week whilst we decide what to do with him (Pro: He means well and actually does know how to do things with Spring, Con: His communication is as always total gibberish that no-one can understand anyway)

[zwzsg]

You can modify metal map.

[Forboding Angel]

Long post

You misunderstood what I wrote.

The wiki instructions for mapping should not be sitting there explaining how to create a terrain texture. Tutorials can cover that.

The main beef of that page is to show what you need, in what sizes and how to assemble it.

You say a lot of the "baby steps" have been removed. I think you did not look closely enough.

First section provides link to tools you need.

Second section explains the different components. Clicking each link gives you a description and an explanation.

Third section shows you how to compile it.

Fourth section shows you how to bukkake it up.

etc etc.

First through third sections explain very explicitly in "baby steps". If you need to learn how to create a texture, that is a different issue and is grounds for calling a tutorial, like Behe's Cararra tutorial.


Or did I misunderstand what you were getting at?

----------------

Flozi for wikigod.

However, what I have written is main instruction.

Mapping Software
Mapping Tutorials

Should be subpages of what I have written.
----------------

@forb:

It's not a fucking tutorial.

Then, as knorke said, don't remove the tutorials because otherwise no one will learn to make maps.

Dude... Those "tutorials" contained old and outdated information, deprecated "procedures" and were teaching the WRONG way to create maps. If your map consists of you hardcoding the feature map and the metal map into the SMF and definitions done with an SMD, I have news for you. You're using a very old and deprecated method. Moreover, newbies should not learn this method, if only for that fact that it is much more difficult to use and manipulate.

You may not have noticed while the world passed you by, that if have to compile your map more than once, and the multiple compile was done for some reason other than changing the heightmap, UR DOIN' IT RONG!

[smoth]

Also I banned Emmanuel for 1 week whilst we decide what to do with him (Pro: He means well and actually does know how to do things with Spring, Con: His communication is as always total gibberish that no-one can understand anyway)

I forget what it is, but emmanuel has a genuine psychological disorder which leads to his bizarre and problematic behavior. He doesn't mean to be a problem but can't help himself from doing stuff that causes discord. I wish I could remember what it is called. I wish there was a way to let him work and just review his posts.

[knorke]

It is not about what is newer or older.
It is about how map_development was a portal page and you replaced it with one tutorial.

Also, but this is really minor compared to the previous issue and beside the point:

If your map consists of you hardcoding the feature map...

That is the way the engine does it and what works for all games. Your instructions only works for Gundam RTS and Evolution RTS.

...and the metal map

metal map is really outdated.
I will replace all mentions of it with a guide how to place minerals for Conflict Terra.

[Forboding Angel]

That is the way the engine does it and what works for all games. Your instructions only works for Gundam RTS and Evolution RTS.

So SSMF only works for Gundam and Evo. Might wanna give ZK and BA that memo.

I believe what you mean is that placing features using featureplacer requires the use of evo or gundam. Spoiler alert, YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE FEATUREPLACER!

It is a lua file containing featurenames, positions, etc. You can edit it with notepad if you so desire. You could write a program to do it for you.

You don't HAVE to use spring features as a dependency, but most of the lobbies will DL it automatically (because the lobby sees dependency) with the exception of SL because Koshi for some strange reason still hasn't implemented plasmaserver support at all.

So no. My instructions work for ALL games. Featureplacer is not currently it's own module yet. Boo frickidy hoo. You know as well as I do that we all work on this in our spare time. Perhaps you would rather make people put fucking red dots on a fucking bitmap with a text file list of dot colors corresponding with featurenames and then hard-compile it into the map file! Does that sound like a good idea to you??? Then by all means! Be my guest! http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3941

I dislike intentional dumbassery, which is exactly what you are doing. You know all this damn well for yourself, but you take the route of playing the dumbass to make yourself look "better" (and to piss off anyone trying to rationalize with you, congrats, achievement!), and it's pathetic.

The point of lua is extensibility and modularity, both of which are achieved with blueprint.

Just because you understand how to create map in the old method, does not mean that it should be done that way and definitely does not mean that that is what should be taught from this moment forward.

Just because a wiki page has pictures in it and illustrations, does not make it a fucking tutorial.

THIS: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3941
Is a tutorial!

THIS: http://springrts.com/wiki/Map_development
Is not a tutorial!

If you can't tell the difference, that that is your problem.

[enetheru]

I'm sorry forbs, there is nothing strikingly useful about the page to me.

it gives a cursory gloss over the tools and concepts for making a map., sort of like an overview. without any really useful information. it just sort of points you in the general direction(remember i'm a linux user, so there is so much in there that just doesn't relate specifically to me, that I have to 'translate')

don't get me wrong, I don't think the old documentation was any better, so reverting is sort of pointless.

I had to do extensive research and testing to figure out how to make maps, even reading the source code to figure out what variables are valid in the mapinfo.lua.

I even made my own mapping page to catalog the information I was finding cause I knew changing the mapping page would end in a shit hurricane

I've scoured the forums to find tidbits of information that are non obvious.

I've had behe help me out in irc with other random things.

IMHO the page needs to be re-worked, made to be independent of games, focusing on valid(for the engine) maps.. and have detailed sections for the various engine features, and sections dedicated to individual games and their own structures, like the resourcing in zero-k.

2c

[knorke]

you dont get it, i dont care, everybody walk the dinosaur.

[enetheru]

you dont get it, i dont care, everybody walk the dinosaur.

[Forboding Angel]

I'm sorry forbs, there is nothing strikingly useful about the page to me.

Well couldn't we subpage each section out and then fill it in with useful information? That was the original intention. I even had a section to wiki authors that it should be parted out and filled in.

But of course, people like knorke come in and crap all over it before it has a chance to get any reasonable discussion and it all goes down the shitter.

[smoth]

I got to see the 1:1 gundam, stand aside

[enetheru]

I'm sorry forbs, there is nothing strikingly useful about the page to me.

Well couldn't we subpage each section out and then fill it in with useful information? That was the original intention. I even had a section to wiki authors that it should be parted out and filled in.

Sounds like a plan.

But of course, people like knorke come in and crap all over it before it has a chance to get any reasonable discussion and it all goes down the shitter.

I will give you some of my optimism :D

[knorke]

Well couldn't we subpage each section out and then fill it in with useful information?

That is what I am saying the whole time and what the original page was like.

[Forboding Angel]

But you're wrong, Knorke. That is not what the original page was like.

The original page had tons of irrelevant, useless, deprecated information. 'Round these parts we roll with the "new hotness" (ssmf).

It's not that ssmf is some newfangled thing that some of us jsut dreamed up one day... It's that ssmf is the new format, and regular old smf is deprecated (read: old and busted, shit, sucks, bukkake star, etc).

Smf, sucked dick. It always sucked dick, and will never stop sucking dick. It makes whores look like virgins.

Ssmf is extensible, and modular. You can use all of it's features, or none of them, the choice is yours, but the fact of the matter is that in ssmf, every single thing can be changed with lua. The only two obvious exceptions are the texture map and the heightmap. Even the metalmap can be lua'd (it isn't by default, even though by all accounts, it should be). Even fricking BA has lua metalmap capability!

The problem with having a wiki page of links, is that you have a wiki page of links; when in many cases you would be better served by having most, if not all, of the content of those links all shown on a single page.

This is exactly where the mapping wiki falls. It isn't the type of thing where having a structure like the game development page is appropriate, but a tutorial structure is not appropriate either. This is why I stuck strictly to informational purposes. If someone wants to write a tutorial with how they do things, that is fine, and can be linked to in an appropriate tutorials section.

About OS shit:
Ethernu, don't make me come over and insult your dog... The process on linux is exactly the same as windows. Would you like me to retake the screenshots in linux mint? Cause it's the same damn thing. The compile line is also almost exactly the same using mapconvng as it is with normal mapconv (abiet, quite a bit shorter).

[enetheru]

About OS shit:
Ethernu, don't make me come over and insult your dog...

Whilst I do understand that its intended to be humorous piss take, I don't really appreciate it, cheers for respecting. :)

The process on linux is exactly the same as windows. Would you like me to retake the screenshots in linux mint? Cause it's the same damn thing. The compile line is also almost exactly the same using mapconvng as it is with normal mapconv (abiet, quite a bit shorter).

No need, that's where collaboration comes in , I can do that part :D

[Forboding Angel]

Well, the compiling section could be split into parts of compiling with linux and compiling with windows.

However, this is where lack of updated content rears it's ugly head.

If, for example, you were to imagine that there was only one OS, and then take the compiling section and dump it into a new page called compiling... There is only one blurb about compiling. Dumping it into it's own page is more harmful than helpful.

BUT (butt joke), if there are 2 potential sections (or more) dealing with compiling, then it makes perfect sense to have links.

Do you kinda get what I'm after here?

A page of single sections with solitary links is stupid, however, once a section gains more than 1 potential subsection, links are a-ok. The idea is to prevent needless lolclicking that would serve no real purpose. It's not like any of these sections are going to be linked to from elsewhere in the wiki.

Notice in the components section, that is split into links, which could then have their own structure. For example, texture map could ahve an overview then links to texture tutorials, or lists of tools to make textures (which it sort of does but it's formatted ugly).

I think knorke didn't understand my overarching purpose. He is the kind of person who would sublink it just because that's "what you do", whether it was a good idea from the standpoint of usability or not.

What I have given is a rough yet concise guide to getting your map made. Now all we need to do is add content around it (or to it), add subsections, etc.

The concept is simple, moreover, it's pretty well thought out. This is why I get so upset with knorke for not understanding the overarching goal.

The reasons I am upset with knorke are exactly the same reasons that I would not allow my actual mapping tutorial (the most complete and concise tutorial ever made for SMF mapping btw) to be placed in the wiki. (Course actually at that time, he has a bunch of dumbasshattery in the wiki before flozi and knorke started cleaning it up, for which I am very grateful btw)

About OS shit:
Ethernu, don't make me come over and insult your dog...

Whilst I do understand that its intended to be humorous piss take, I don't really appreciate it, cheers for respecting. :)

Not sure what piss take means exactly, but the equivalent of me coming over and calling your neutered dog a eunich .

But to directly respond... yes it was, ok I don't really understand why but ok, and cheers to you as well

[FLOZi]

I need to make one point absolutely clear:

DEPRECATED
(Computer Science) To mark (a component of a software standard) as obsolete to warn against its use in the future so that it may be phased out.

vs


DEPRECIATED
1. (Economics) to reduce or decline in value or price

[Forboding Angel]

Ahh, good catch Flozi.

[knorke]

It is always a good idea to sort stuff into pages:
-Easier for multiple authors to work on the wiki at once.
-Multiple pages can link to it.
-For the reader it is easier to skip over a link than text, if it is not what you are looking for.
-Pages can include the page.
This way it can look like one page (if that is wanted) but keeps the advantages of subpages.

It's not like any of these sections are going to be linked to from elsewhere in the wiki.

bro do you even script?????

If you think its not needed to wrap something into a function/class/file/whatever because "its only used once", that is always the stuff you later wish it was right from start.

[PicassoCT]

but this page is a one night stand.. the wiki cant get pregnant? It cant be.. it said it had taken the anit-subsection-pill..