Help with tactics

[Gota]

Honestly, if you want a simpler, more brute-force game you should be playing Arm, not Core. Arm has a simpler vehicle game (Pitbull and Stumpies) than Core does. Core's "heavier" asset really just means access to a few anti-swarm vehicles that Arm lacks, but they pay for this failing with less-effective tanks and missing a heavy-hitting support fire unit (Penetrator).

Also, Core's emphasis on laser weapons (which do more damage at point-blank range) makes them more micro-management intensive.

Of course, this is ignoring the kbot game... but don't worry, everybody does.

Seriously why do you make suggestions for a game you hardly play?
Have you ever played Ba 1v1 at all?
Levelers plus gators are more than enough and Core t1 vehi does not require more micro than ARM if not less.

For t2 vehicle CORE has the banisher as his longer ranged support units.
Goliath for the CORE T2 fac is probably one of the most efficient units in the game for cost ATM.
Emphesis on laser weapons means nothing...
It has nothing to do with being more micro intensive if anything when it comes to gator-flash, flash requires more micro ATM just to manage to avoid getting slaughtered by gators.

CORE is and always was the definitive Heavy faction...

[Pxtl]

Because he said he plays team games and likes BA 5v5. Which is the only BA I play, because if I play BA I'm doing it because I want to play *now* and not later.

Here's the thing, for a newbie, what sounds easier:

1) Scout, then use Flashes, then use Stumpies

vs.

2) Scout, then use Gators... oh, and bring out a Leveller if you want to fight enemy raiding-tanks, and sometimes you need to micro your gators into point-blank range. And then use Raiders, but your Raiders aren't quite as good as the Stumpies so you should consider getting an air-lab set up to bring out some Bladewings.

If a guy says "I want the heavy faction" in most games, they usually mean "I want to stomp my enemy with a frontal attack of assault tanks". In that vein, Core really isn't better than Arm, except in the extreme-late-game when Golis come into play.

"the Sumo,the Krogoth,the Krow..."

He made it clear this is about 5v5 DSD. Those aren't tanks.

Basically, he wants a nice simple assault game. For 90% of BA play, that means spamming L1 battle-tanks. For that? Play Arm.

[KaiserJ]

nah, for DSD you definitely want to skip tanks after scouts and make rocket trucks with a few antiswarm, because the basin typemap favors vehicles unfairly, and a vehicle with a long range even more.

light tanks only really work in large groups because of the skinny un-flankable nature of the map, and in DSD, only a "right from the start" massing of light tanks will work, and only then will it work if multiple players do it... as soon as somebody reaches the middle of the map and builds a HLT, the light tanks will generally be useless.

the only time it'll really work out (in the first 10 minutes at least) is if you notice that your team fighting in the basin outnumbers the other team in the basin... but even then you're better off making medium tanks as opposed to light ones.

the big rule : more players in dsd = less effective light tank rushes

[Johannes]

You can do a lot of things as long as you know how to, and your team does something compatible with it. Current trends just favor spamming samsons but it's not any end-all build.

Golis not very lategame unit, often its the 1st t2 unit anyone makes... And dunno how gator/leveler is any harder to micro than flash/stumpy. Just because you CAN get blades does not make anything harder.

[KaiserJ]

my reasoning is that if you spam light tanks early, you'll get washed by anything other than light tanks

ofc im assuming competent players, if you get some idiot screwing around, all bets are off

[Johannes]

Enough light tanks beat a lot of things

[KaiserJ]

thats a bit abstract though; you could always comdrop into my base, build metal makers next to everything, and blow it all up

we're talking in "fair terms" though here, somehow i doubt a johannes who makes only light tanks could beat a johannes who made only riot and rocket trucks, in the frontline bitch spot in DSD basin without some help from a teammate.

ofc anything is possible. but probable? idk

[Johannes]

we're talking in "fair terms" though here, somehow i doubt a johannes who makes only light tanks could beat a johannes who made only riot and rocket trucks, in the frontline bitch spot in DSD basin without some help from a teammate.

So? I said teammates do something compatible, ie do some offensive units too. Ofc its not any ultimate strategy either and will fail vs many things if you insist on doing it in the wrong time.

[KaiserJ]

i cling to my point that a truck/riot spam is less requiring of teammate help in order to be successful as opposed to some other strats

i mean if we're going into the realm of semantics, the best strategy is to have all of your teammates do a labshare and spam raiders.

[Johannes]

Why did you say "assuming competent players" then? If only use strats that dont require cooperation :D

[KaiserJ]

sorry yes that wording was poor. what i should have said was "an equal level of competence across the two teams discounting the skill relation between the player in question and the equally valued force that he is immediately in contact with"

not to say that theres ever an equal level of skill between two teams, or even many competent players. certainly not in dsd

but isn't that what it's all about; if the units and economy are balanced perfectly from the start across the teams, and the teams are theoretically even in skill levels and cooperation, then wouldn't the game just go on forever? or would the luck of making certain micromanagement choices end up dictating the result like a billion coin flips in a row?

[UAF]

Umm... I actually don't play DSD if I can help it, since all DSD games seems to be 8v8 (On a friggin 5v5 map!). :)

Anyway, I guess I'll play around with ARM to see what they feel like.
From looking at unit states it does seem that ARM vehicles are generally better then CORE, until one reach the Goliaths.

I rather spend the game on decided what units to build and which direction to attack from, then microing my every unit so it'll deal maximum damage.
I'm not sure there's a major difference in this between the two sides though.

[HectorMeyer]

"Anyway, I guess I'll play around with ARM to see what they feel like.
From looking at unit states it does seem that ARM vehicles are generally better then CORE, until one reach the Goliaths.

I rather spend the game on decided what units to build and which direction to attack from, then microing my every unit so it'll deal maximum damage.
I'm not sure there's a major difference in this between the two sides though."

Yeah, Bulldogs and Penetrators hit a bit harder than Reapers and Banishers, but are more expensive and slower. In practice they play very similar though and dont require different microing. Same for Stumpie and Raider which have only minor differences. As already said the Goliath is too slow for the late game and often used as an artillery unit for its long range and devastating AOE early in the game, similar to the Fatboy.

BA is not like Starcraft, where each side plays fundamentally different. In BA, the differences are really subtle, and you can always switch sides without the need to learn something completely new. Don't worry so much about choosing the right side, it really is just a question of style (main advantage of ARM is T2 vehicle engineer and smaller Fusion footprint imo).

Both sides require considerable macro and micro skills to be effective though. The micro in BA is really well done in comparison to Starcraft. In most cases it is sufficient to command your battlegroup as a whole, not single units. You will probably give your group a new command every few seconds during battle, repositioning, and moving back and forth, so there is lots of tension and involvement, but not a frantic speed clicking contest. Battles are about making lots of decisions, but never too hectic. You always feel in control and have a good overview of whats happening. Battles are much more dynamic (also the eco/macro) than Starcraft, with realistic physics and tactics like dodging shots, abusing turnrates, acceleration and momentum of units. Furthermore, Starcraft battles are really just quick "go in" and "retreat", plus some hectic microing of single special units, or maybe assigning some targets to some units, and over after a few seconds, followed by long moments of silence. BA games are often one huge, neverending battle.

Don't expect ARM to play more simple and CORE more hit and run because of a little T2 tank stat difference, it doesn't work that easy.

[TheEpicMang]

i can give some advice.

Whore as much metal as you can get. expand as far as possible and claim all the mexes, make sure you get all the reclaimage in a battle because wreck reclaiming is soo important

Manage your base and eco well. My favourite method of doing this is just to make 1 adv solar, 1 nano, 1 adv solar, 1 nano.. ofcourse how many you make depends how much metal income you have. and a useful tip is: never leave your lab unassisted. always have a con assiting the unit production.

Compush. Not always necesary but it is usually a good thing to do. Send com walking the moment you have finished making the contructors (1 or 2 assisting lab, 1-3 expanding/ecoing).. because it is important to back him up.

Combomb. It is so useful, always do it if the enemy com is standing in the middle of a big porc spot or next to a big army. Make sure you never keep your com in these positions. Don't try to spam aa everywhere to prevent it because it is usually unpreventable.. just dont make yourself a juicy target

Teching. Do not tech until you have at minimum 3 adv solar energy income and like 1300+ metal in your storage (unless your the team techer then you blow your com or something). Do not tech if your team is failing. Do not tech under 15 minutes game time if your on front (or pretty much anywhere in south dsd). Fact: Teching makes you pretty vulnerable. When you tech up the first thing you should do is upgrade your base mexes. If your opponent is all t2'd up and pumping t2 units then you probably should tech up yourself as it's unlikely you will be able to compete with t1

[UAF]

Thanks for the advice.
Watching a couple of replays of DSD with played who teched impressivly fast, I wrote down their build order and I thought I might as well post it here.
Those build orders go said players to T2 in about 5 minutes, which seems to be a requirement in DSD. But I think it also tought me a bit about general economy building.
I'll review some replays of players playing agressivly and see if there are other Build Orders that are worthy of posting.

Anyway, how do get T2 in 5 minutes:
3 mex
4 solar
1 E storage
veh lab
1 con
1 nano tower
+
rec lab
2 advanced solar
1 nano
1 metal storage
adv veh lab
+
self destruct commander and reclaim it
advanced constractor
moho mexes
fusion plant

and with kbot lab (was a bit slower actually!):
3 mex
3 solar
1 E storage
1 solar / or skip
kbot lab
1 rez bot --- use it to rec lab
1 con
2 advanced solar
3 nano
2/3 advanced solar
rec solar
1 M storage
advanced kbot lab
+
self destruct commander and reclaim it
advanced constractor
moho mexes
fusion plant


Anyway, any comments will be welcomed, and I also think there should be some webpage listing those things.
When I wanted to learn Starcraft2 tactics I found a gazillion web pages with instructions, surely BA can have one...
Or at the very list a properly edited and moderated stickied thread...

[Wombat]

small note, in mass games u can make e storage after 2 solars, u will excess energy anyway (other players usually excess e). more is usually needed in small games

When I wanted to learn Starcraft2 tactics I found a gazillion web pages with instructions, surely BA can have one...

ive found few pages where 'pros' teach u strats, rushes etc for money, i lold.

[TheEpicMang]

teching on dsd is newby but oh well, everyone learns it at some point

and it will make u think ur pro because ucan win with t2 bombers

learn tto 1v1 if u want to get better on spring

[Godde]

but isn't that what it's all about; if the units and economy are balanced perfectly from the start across the teams, and the teams are theoretically even in skill levels and cooperation, then wouldn't the game just go on forever? or would the luck of making certain micromanagement choices end up dictating the result like a billion coin flips in a row?

Don't forget that strategies are also a big random factor. Unless the map got 1 dominant strategy that both teams know about there will always be randomness in what strategies the teams chose. This especially true when new players are doing a nuke, krogoth, bombers or anything that the other player aren't ready to face or don't know how to counter.

Look at nukes for example. If the cost of getting a nuke is less than the cost to get Anti-nukes covering all vital targets there will always be a point where you should get a nuke and the other team will get behind wheather they make Anti-Nukes or not. Counters to a nukerush might actually be bombers or simply pushing harder but theese are all dependant on what strategies that has been deployed by both teams.