XTA Balance!

[Lindir The Green]

Why don't we just have an AI completely control every army, that would get rid of micro.

If you don't like micro, play a turn based game.

[Min3mat]

lol sergey all ur h's are g's! :) um yeah i think that if the AI could micro it would rock HOWEVER i don't want players to be able to activate a AI to do that for them...that would kill all fun/strategy/tactics

[Kixxe]

"To mirco is to make qwick tatical desition to make your units fight better. To move artillery into to right position is microing. To move the wounded units back and cover the hole with fresh new units is microing. To make your units surrond a bulldog so it can't move is microing. "


other 2 cents:

1) "To move artillery into to right position is microing." Can it be done by ai? Easility - artelery should find out where it is safe and can attack the designeted target. Is it big task for AI? It is just look at 200 positions nealy and give and estimation for it. It iwll also move artelery out of range for short-range attackers.

2) "To move the wounded units back". Can be do easily by AI. Just stop attacking by it and start moving to repair platform/base, or just out of attacker.

3) "cover the hole with fresh new units ". Can be done by AI if AI knows formations. Like - i have a gap in formation, so what can i put in it? Aga - the closest unit is that one. Go to formation!

4) "To make your units surrond a bulldog so it can't move is microing". Dont think it is possible. But btw - when you need it. If you can't destroy it - it will kill you. Otherthise - if it can kill your "damager" units - it is all about formations aging.

So the point is AI can done a very good job - just need nice scripts for it. What can really can't be done by AI - is a strategy.

Like what?

Is ai's can cheat, they can beat anything!

They check what kind of units you have, where you have em , and plan acodingly. Im pretty sure that is as esay as artillery moving to a good spot for attacking. If we really want to, we can code a game where an ai is nearly IMPOSIBOLE to defeat! Just like you can code a fighting game ai, where the ai blocks EXCAKLY when you punch and those the best combo in the world everytime it counter.(witch is with every single attack you do)

You say: "What can really can't be done by AI . is a strategy"
Fine. Do your thing then. Program an ultimate ai sricpt for your units. Will be perfect won't it? "oh look, he's building goliaths. Shiftclick on brawler tab and automateckly all my farks start helping on that factory and then automateckly my units gather up in groups of 10 brawlers and beat the shit out of those gollies. *OTHER PLAYER* Oh look, he's building brawlers...""
Good, now we have a RTS that a armless child with ADD in a coma can win in.

would say - that micro or let's name it macro managment is really depends of how many units we have. When you manage 10 units - it is may be right spending of your time, then managing 100 - microing them can be really stupid - you spend too much time on it - so it does not give you enought in back.

I don't think you know the real definition of microing...

Microing is EVERYTHING you do on a battle field. Only time your not "microing" is when you are ctrl+a clicking in the corner. They are both needed for a good RTS.

A player that have good Macro skills builds and exelent base and has great resource managment. But he sends his units in to oblivion and wont manage his defences when the enemy is attacking.

A play with great micro skills will build phew units, but use em as a pro. You will never se so much damage done with a small 10 unit k-bot army. On the other hand, he will esaly die to any attack since he's resources are lower then the support for bush, and his base is something not even Picasso could love.

They are ying and yang in an RTS. we need them both.

[SwiftSpear]

There is so many qualitative things players do with micromanagement that an AI would have difficulty emulating easily, and if it did emulate it easily it would make the game alot less fun. Things like deciding you don't like the current mex your zipper is attacking because there is an LLT there, so you decide you're going to move on to another mex instead, while staying out of the LLT range the entire time. Running 30 AKs into an opponents base and realizing when you see the commander that running them all in together will just get them all Dgunned with 3-4 blasts, so you back off and send them one by one so the comm has to spend exorbitant energy to stay alive. Really, skirting outside of the range of any automated defence is probably outside of the abilities of an AI, too many qualitative decisions involved. Do I want to sacrifice these 20 AKs so my goli can get to the annihillator untouched? Is it a better idea to circle around the LLT or push through it with my group of 15 flash tanks? Too many variables for an AI to even begin to handle. Intellegent AI really can't handle. However, things like automatically retreating highly damaged units wouldn't be so hard to deal with, and it still drives me nuts when an artillery unit decides to follow it's current target back within the range of an opponents defences.

There is a midpoint between where an AI requires too much micromanagement and when it gets too smart for it's own good.

[Kixxe]

There is so many qualitative things players do with micromanagement that an AI would have difficulty emulating easily, and if it did emulate it easily it would make the game alot less fun. Things like deciding you don't like the current mex your zipper is attacking because there is an LLT there, so you decide you're going to move on to another mex instead, while staying out of the LLT range the entire time. Running 30 AKs into an opponents base and realizing when you see the commander that running them all in together will just get them all Dgunned with 3-4 blasts, so you back off and send them one by one so the comm has to spend exorbitant energy to stay alive. Really, skirting outside of the range of any automated defence is probably outside of the abilities of an AI, too many qualitative decisions involved. Do I want to sacrifice these 20 AKs so my goli can get to the annihillator untouched? Is it a better idea to circle around the LLT or push through it with my group of 15 flash tanks? Too many variables for an AI to even begin to handle. Intellegent AI really can't handle. However, things like automatically retreating highly damaged units wouldn't be so hard to deal with, and it still drives me nuts when an artillery unit decides to follow it's current target back within the range of an opponents defences.

There is a midpoint between where an AI requires too much micromanagement and when it gets too smart for it's own good.

Why offcourse. I just said that if we are gonna have AI's handleing everything we could just make a big damn ai to play the whole game for us. Oh, and there are behavior modfiers in Spring for a reson. Set the artillery on hold position...

Also, most units should be stupid, but not moronic. If i tell them to go somewhere, they are gonna try to get there ASAP. If i tell them to attack something, they move to that position. They only know how to fight, not what the overall plan is.


Also... if we remove the need of microing, where those the strategy lie without turning sping into a Rock, papper and sizzor game?

[SwiftSpear]

There is so many qualitative things players do with micromanagement that an AI would have difficulty emulating easily, and if it did emulate it easily it would make the game alot less fun. Things like deciding you don't like the current mex your zipper is attacking because there is an LLT there, so you decide you're going to move on to another mex instead, while staying out of the LLT range the entire time. Running 30 AKs into an opponents base and realizing when you see the commander that running them all in together will just get them all Dgunned with 3-4 blasts, so you back off and send them one by one so the comm has to spend exorbitant energy to stay alive. Really, skirting outside of the range of any automated defence is probably outside of the abilities of an AI, too many qualitative decisions involved. Do I want to sacrifice these 20 AKs so my goli can get to the annihillator untouched? Is it a better idea to circle around the LLT or push through it with my group of 15 flash tanks? Too many variables for an AI to even begin to handle. Intellegent AI really can't handle. However, things like automatically retreating highly damaged units wouldn't be so hard to deal with, and it still drives me nuts when an artillery unit decides to follow it's current target back within the range of an opponents defences.

There is a midpoint between where an AI requires too much micromanagement and when it gets too smart for it's own good.

Why offcourse. I just said that if we are gonna have AI's handleing everything we could just make a big damn ai to play the whole game for us. Oh, and there are behavior modfiers in Spring for a reson. Set the artillery on hold position...

Also, most units should be stupid, but not moronic. If i tell them to go somewhere, they are gonna try to get there ASAP. If i tell them to attack something, they move to that position. They only know how to fight, not what the overall plan is.


Also... if we remove the need of microing, where those the strategy lie without turning sping into a Rock, papper and sizzor game?

having a building order more efficient then your opponent... which apparently is the highest from of RTS strategy, because as from what I can tell people want to remove everything else.

[PauloMorfeo]

just two my cents about wesels or jeffry.

1) 2 weasels can kill any starting base exept bases which has 2 llts. ...

That's not true.

Also, sergey, beeing rushed by 2 jeffys and losing your entire early base in Azure because your comm went outside of the "fortress", sucks. But if you don't like that, you should build some missile towers (better as anti scouts) and keep your comm at home until defense is set.

There is no reason for you to insult the person who rushed you like you did on PT_bate_chapas in an Azure game they made with you. You didn't played all that badly, just in a risky fashion (leaving your base poorly guarded), PT_bate_chapas just done a great rushing job on you (that didn't even took all that micro to be acomplished) and deserved more than insults which i didn't expected from you, beeing you a very experienced player (rank 5).
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1654

I'm starting to get really tired of rushing complaints. Last time we all met, my mates looked at my game style and they were «dude, what happened to you? Why are you so defensive?». I started to think about that and realised how much all that complaining affected my game style. Constantly not rushing out of fear of people complaining, i eventually got used to it.

[Zoombie]

I just had a great idea.

Each 'turn' has the following steps in it.

Host pauses
Each player plans out his movements with the shift key
Once each is done host unpauses for 60 seconds
60 seconds pass, and no one can do ANYTHING in that period
Host pauses, cycle begins again

Howz that for a turn based game, eh?

But on the whole ai management stuff, i say screw it. Your here to play the god damned game, not to whatch the ai play the god damed game.

<cough> Dungion Shige<chough><chough>

[SwiftSpear]

I just had a great idea.

Each 'turn' has the following steps in it.

Host pauses
Each player plans out his movements with the shift key
Once each is done host unpauses for 60 seconds
60 seconds pass, and no one can do ANYTHING in that period
Host pauses, cycle begins again

Howz that for a turn based game, eh?

But on the whole ai management stuff, i say screw it. Your here to play the god damned game, not to whatch the ai play the god damed game.

<cough> Dungion Shige<chough><chough>

I had some plans for a fallout style game using more or less those combat mechanics at some point... but for it to really pay off enough to be much fun you need more control over your units movements and firing abilities then most RTS/TBS provide, as well as some fun things like chosing the cover you want to hide under and weather you are going to risk running from point A to B under suppressive fire. Done properly gameplay mechanics like that could really slow down overly fastpaced tactical situtions to the point where they are really fun to explore in depth.

[Pxtl]

If you want no-micro-gameplay, you've got to try Progress Quest:

http://www.progressquest.com/

[CrowJuice]

A player that have good Macro skills builds and exelent base and has great resource managment. But he sends his units in to oblivion and wont manage his defences when the enemy is attacking.

A play with great micro skills will build phew units, but use em as a pro. You will never se so much damage done with a small 10 unit k-bot army. On the other hand, he will esaly die to any attack since he's resources are lower then the support for bush, and his base is something not even Picasso could love.

Why not get a base building AI for the microer and the squad commander style AI for the macroer? Suprem commander is gonna include the base building AI and I don't belive it will ruin the game. But still each for his/her own. Could always have a new mod which includes squad commanders and AI facilities :D

[Kixxe]

Why not get a base building AI for the microer and the squad commander style AI for the macroer? Wink Suprem commander is gonna include the base building AI and I don't belive it will ruin the game. But still each for his/her own. Could always have a new mod which includes squad commanders and AI facilities :D

Spring is not SC. Also, they are only gonna include a base building ai? What those that tell you about what they think is important?

Each for it's own, then your a leauge of your own. My version of RTS utopia is a small army killing a bigger one using tatics. How many units where and when and what kind whit what support and in these conditions and using all these factors to kill a superior (in encomy or smilar, not skill) enemy.


Now... Anything about XTA BALANCE???

[Optimus Prime]

like i said in the other thread, I think Ressurection KBots have much too high Workertime for their price.
After a big Battle sI ask me: shall I build 20 Bulldogs or 1 Fark? -.-

[SwiftSpear]

I tend to agree with optimus. not nessicarily that thier work time is too high, but just that they are overpowered right now. Because farks and res bots build rediculously fast nearly every player spams them in the late game. In practice this means that for practically no cost every single player you play against will be able to counterattack you with nearly every rush you do in full plus whatever units they add, in just a matter of minutes.

I see this as highly counter productive. There shouldn't be any factor encouraging players to NOT try to do damage to thier opponent, but as it stands a fark swarm just makes attacking a player absolutly useless unless you have the forces to push through and compleatly finish him off. Doomsday and annihalator leave corpses, meaning you can spend 30 bulldogs to kill several of them, just to have them resurrected after the bulldogs are slowly finished off, and then the enemy player has bulldogs to use to defend his base as well.

It's bad enough that we are giving enemy players free metal for successfully destroying a rush, the advantage of ressurecting is way too steep. It's one of the big things I had been praising XTA for doing, killing porcing. But after playing a game that went extreamly long recently, I realize that porcing is still very much an issue, just not as much as it was in the early game.

[Strider]

By the same token however, you could use res-bots to further an advance and make it more sucessful; instead of having to have con bots/planes/vehicles dancing between heavy fire in the front lines to repair dammaged but not dead units, farks can follow along the back lines and resurect fallen units/buildings friend or foe to continue pushing forward.

Saying that they are overpowered is kinda bizarr; because they can't actually personally hurt units, instead they build things and resurect things; these are tactical abilities that both sides share and either side can make use of with proper planning.

As well, they are expensive units, and in a map which is short on metal there loss is not something to be ignored, so you can 'bait' them out with a 'failed' wave of attackers, then move in the real wave killing the farks first; if they have so much extra metal and FARKS that whatever they loose there is irrelivant, then they can just as easily spam out whatever unit your worried about them claiming with resurection.

[SwiftSpear]

By the same token however, you could use res-bots to further an advance and make it more sucessful; instead of having to have con bots/planes/vehicles dancing between heavy fire in the front lines to repair dammaged but not dead units, farks can follow along the back lines and resurect fallen units/buildings friend or foe to continue pushing forward.

No you can't. They have too few hitpoints and too high a relitive cost to be used anywhere near active combat. They also have such a high build speed advantage that most players don't even want to use them anywhere out of their bases. The last factor is ressurection time is way too high to use them in active combat, they might as well have big bullseyes painted on them if they were going to be used offencively.

Saying that they are overpowered is kinda bizarr; because they can't actually personally hurt units, instead they build things and resurect things; these are tactical abilities that both sides share and either side can make use of with proper planning.

Giveing core a fusion plant at half the price of the arm equivalent would also be overpowered. A unit doesn't need to have higher attack ratings or higher stats to be overpowered, it just has to be the difference between victory and defeat more often then not. Almost every late game farks/resbots become the deciding factor.

As well, they are expensive units, and in a map which is short on metal there loss is not something to be ignored, so you can 'bait' them out with a 'failed' wave of attackers, then move in the real wave killing the farks first; if they have so much extra metal and FARKS that whatever they loose there is irrelivant, then they can just as easily spam out whatever unit your worried about them claiming with resurection.

They are expensive enough that you need to keep them away from active combat, but they aren't so costly that they aren't worth what you pay for them right now. They build DISTURBINGLY fast, and have several decent feild structures in thier roster. They really don't even need thier ressurection capabilities to retain balance.

Suggestion: Ressurection kbots can only ressurect fallen units that were on it's team originally, enemy units it automatically reclaims. This would end the vicious cycle of teams continuously sending half price ressurection armies at eachother, and not force players to porc behind infinate lines of annihilators and Bertha when attempting to win games.

[Min3mat]

erm thats REALLY stupid recycle only ur units? wtf? just put a lone slasher in a metal wreck to claim it and stop a FARK ressing it and do it urself later wreckage wars ROCK i'm all for them :D

[Kixxe]

By the same token however, you could use res-bots to further an advance and make it more sucessful; instead of having to have con bots/planes/vehicles dancing between heavy fire in the front lines to repair dammaged but not dead units, farks can follow along the back lines and resurect fallen units/buildings friend or foe to continue pushing forward.

No you can't. They have too few hitpoints and too high a relitive cost to be used anywhere near active combat. They also have such a high build speed advantage that most players don't even want to use them anywhere out of their bases. The last factor is ressurection time is way too high to use them in active combat, they might as well have big bullseyes painted on them if they were going to be used offencively.

Saying that they are overpowered is kinda bizarr; because they can't actually personally hurt units, instead they build things and resurect things; these are tactical abilities that both sides share and either side can make use of with proper planning.

Giveing core a fusion plant at half the price of the arm equivalent would also be overpowered. A unit doesn't need to have higher attack ratings or higher stats to be overpowered, it just has to be the difference between victory and defeat more often then not. Almost every late game farks/resbots become the deciding factor.

As well, they are expensive units, and in a map which is short on metal there loss is not something to be ignored, so you can 'bait' them out with a 'failed' wave of attackers, then move in the real wave killing the farks first; if they have so much extra metal and FARKS that whatever they loose there is irrelivant, then they can just as easily spam out whatever unit your worried about them claiming with resurection.

They are expensive enough that you need to keep them away from active combat, but they aren't so costly that they aren't worth what you pay for them right now. They build DISTURBINGLY fast, and have several decent feild structures in thier roster. They really don't even need thier ressurection capabilities to retain balance.

Suggestion: Ressurection kbots can only ressurect fallen units that were on it's team originally, enemy units it automatically reclaims. This would end the vicious cycle of teams continuously sending half price ressurection armies at eachother, and not force players to porc behind infinate lines of annihilators and Bertha when attempting to win games.

That would make ressurection close to useless. I mean, most of the time you will be on the attacking side when you lose units, and that makes it very hard for you to rez any units at all. Thus removing rezzing from a good tatic to just something that noone never uses because it never works.

My own suggestion is to balance rezzing to a good level of energy and metal and time, and add hitpoints to Fark and necro. Thus making rezzing harder, and so you need to protect the area more when rezzing units.

Now, the problem with Farks are that they are used to repair, but many hates the fact that they make pumping out krogoths an ease. Offcourse, we can't edit the Assitant factor without removing what farks was suposed to do in the first place, repair.



What is the purpose of the FARK btw? If a merl is used to hit statinary defences and special targets, what is the fark suposed to do? Pump out units? Repair your units during combat? Rezzing fallen units behind the frontline? Run around and reclaim fallen enemys and allys? Create momentrealy bases at a far of location?

[aGorm]

Originaly it could only help to build, not resurect. and it had no build tree. All it was for was going places fast and helping, and keeping your front line stuff serviced. 5 or so patrolling behind your defenses would make them last 5 times as long for a fragment of the cost and a lot of convenince, as would they if you sentt them in with your armys arty, they would stop it getting taken down by teh enamys plasma cannons.

Thats roughly what there were for.

aGorm

[Kixxe]

Bump, i say!