Starcraft 2 announced

[Muzic]

If you die to a rush on SC (or SC2 after seeing some footage...) then you phail..

I asked the turtler what his point of an RTS is.

To build up a base, an army, and attack and defend strategically. Rushing just...well I can't imagine the fun behind it. It's cheap, it's predictable, and it's overdone. Anyone who does it is just doing it to add another useless notch to their e-belt and is most likely not playing the game to have fun.

Now i"m not going to argue this with you anymore because, like all internet arguments, they get nowhere and typically are off topic. Get over it that I feel differently from you. Move on with your life, or get one if needed. Take care.

edit: never debate about something like an RTS to someone who plays fps and rpg's all day... Controlling more than 1 thing seems to be hard for certain people.

[Lolsquad_Steven]

Learning to do it faster is pretty hard at first imo.

[zwzsg]

... and is most likely not playing the game to have fun.

Professional competition circuits aren't about fun. The "pro" term means they do it for a living, not to have fun.

[Zoombie]

It looks like SC2 is going to be able to manage a Zerg "hord" better than the first one. That's the annoying thing about playing as a Zerg player, not enough units. I've been replaying the campaings, and I just got the floating crab things that spit acid.

Yeah...those things are pretty sweet. Eat hot acid, Tassadar!

Or at least he would, if he didn't keep illusioning himself away. Stupid Protoss...

[Zpock]

... and is most likely not playing the game to have fun.

Professional competition circuits aren't about fun. The "pro" term means they do it for a living, not to have fun.

It's possible to find one's proffesion to be fun, and even choose one you find fun to begin with.

And playing competively is also considered more fun then fiddling around aimlessly like casual-n00bs, by some.

[jackalope]

Learning to do it faster is pretty hard at first imo.

keep at it, I'm sure you can learn a few things from some of the pros around here.

[SwiftSpear]

... and is most likely not playing the game to have fun.

Professional competition circuits aren't about fun. The "pro" term means they do it for a living, not to have fun.

You see... This is just wrong. Pro's take it seriously, but that's not because they don't have fun with the game anymore. If anything they add value to the play experience that isn't necessary, they demand excellence out of them selfs, and they are often willing to sacrifice to be the best at what they do. They mentally increase the gravity of the situation to produce a higher mental high with victory, at the cost of the frustration of defeat being stronger as well.

Competing, and being a promising competitor, is alot of fun, infact some people revel in it, and love defining their existence through their skill in competitive events. When you win against someone who is supposed to be the best there is at something, it's hard to express how satisfying that is... I can relate to competitive players when they bitch at casual players for not putting in enough effort, and effectively ruining the game. The goal of the game is to win, and if you're not even trying how the hell can you be having fun? Maby you're having a bit of fun just seeing how units work and what happens if you do some random stupid thing, but that's alot less fun and rewarding then the experience of being the best at what you are doing.

Ultimately I see the casual players taking the high ground in this argument alot... "don't bitch at me, I'm just having fun, you take it too seriously, it's a game"... There is no high ground. If you want to play the game in such a way where you aren't even vaugly working towards the goals the game sets in front of you, then don't expect the competitive players to not want to take the game seriously and be the best at what they are doing. Everyone plays the game in whatever way they find it most satisfying.

[Muzic]

... and is most likely not playing the game to have fun.

Professional competition circuits aren't about fun. The "pro" term means they do it for a living, not to have fun.

Hey I didnt write that, some other guy on a forum did . I dont complain about rushers.

[Ishach]

... and is most likely not playing the game to have fun.

Professional competition circuits aren't about fun. The "pro" term means they do it for a living, not to have fun.

You see... This is just wrong. Pro's take it seriously, but that's not because they don't have fun with the game anymore. If anything they add value to the play experience that isn't necessary, they demand excellence out of them selfs, and they are often willing to sacrifice to be the best at what they do. They mentally increase the gravity of the situation to produce a higher mental high with victory, at the cost of the frustration of defeat being stronger as well.

Competing, and being a promising competitor, is alot of fun, infact some people revel in it, and love defining their existence through their skill in competitive events. When you win against someone who is supposed to be the best there is at something, it's hard to express how satisfying that is... I can relate to competitive players when they bitch at casual players for not putting in enough effort, and effectively ruining the game. The goal of the game is to win, and if you're not even trying how the hell can you be having fun? Maby you're having a bit of fun just seeing how units work and what happens if you do some random stupid thing, but that's alot less fun and rewarding then the experience of being the best at what you are doing.

Ultimately I see the casual players taking the high ground in this argument alot... "don't bitch at me, I'm just having fun, you take it too seriously, it's a game"... There is no high ground. If you want to play the game in such a way where you aren't even vaugly working towards the goals the game sets in front of you, then don't expect the competitive players to not want to take the game seriously and be the best at what they are doing. Everyone plays the game in whatever way they find it most satisfying.

Swiftspear you just have a knack for saying everything perfectly

[jackalope]

I heard steven plays starcraft.

[Lolsquad_Steven]

You heard right boi

[zwzsg]

Somehow I can understand both way:

When each player is pushing himself beyond his max, doing everything he cans and more to achieve victory in a tense match, it gets much more thrilling than any casual game. I've played TA games like that.

When you stop trying to win and just fool around, the game can quickly become so stupid and aimless it stop being interesting.

Then on the other hand, when each player behave friendly with other, making sure to not attack too roughly too soon, even helping his opponent when he's in a bad position, choosing strategies for their coolness and not just their effectivness, you can get much more fun than in a competitive games. I've played TA games like that.

When people are fine with ruining games just to score a win, when the outcome of the game becomes more important than actually playing the game, then it's not about fun anymore but about egos.

So I can feel both side of the argument.

Come to think about it, I think the the loss of fun doesn't occur neither when pro are playing nor when casual are playing, but when players of greatly different skill level meet:
elite vs elite -> fun
casual vs casual -> fun
elite vs casual -> no fun
Althought I could be wrong, as it seem many leets enjoy noobstomps (that, I cannot understand, never had any fun trashing someone of skill too much lower than me.)



That said, for Pro player with "pro" as in making a living out of it, having to practive Starcraft ten hours a day and stuff, I'm sure there's times where they play more because then have to than to get some fun. Sure, being a Pro Starcraft player may give you more fun than being a garbage collector, but whatever the activity, simply changing its status from hobby to work often is enough to make the fun evaporate. Anyway, I just wanted to make a funny about the irrelevance of fun when a game becomes as a serious matter as Starcraft in Korea.

[Boirunner]

I agree completely with SwiftSpear.

Also, I would like to point out that I play at a fairly low level, but I play competitive anyway. Sure, when playing a newbie I'll try to show him the game and make his first few games as nice as possible. But in general I'd prefer to get utterly destroyed by good players then to play with "just for fun" gamers who simbase for an hour.

So it's not just "elite" gamers that actually like playing the game.

(I think many of the players zwzsg calls 'casual' would be better off playing a single player game.)

[Ishach]

After someone knows the basics (how to build, guard, assist, etc) theres probably no better way to teach them than giving your best

[SwiftSpear]

Come to think about it, I think the the loss of fun doesn't occur neither when pro are playing nor when casual are playing, but when players of greatly different skill level meet:
elite vs elite -> fun
casual vs casual -> fun
elite vs casual -> no fun
Althought I could be wrong, as it seem many leets enjoy noobstomps (that, I cannot understand, never had any fun trashing someone of skill too much lower than me.)

Well said, I agree with this completely. Playing at your best doesn't mean finding crappy opponents to humiliate. IMO a good player plays the game to make it fun for his opponents and allies as well. That means not playing a half assed game against someone who is seriously trying to compete with you, but that also means not being a dick to people worse to you, and it means not intentionally screwing around rather then helping your team to the best of your abilities when playing with allies.

Even if a player is massively skilled at a game and understand it in and out, they can still be a sucky player.

[zwzsg]

I think many of the players zwzsg calls 'casual' would be better off playing a single player game.

Especially for RTS, there's a certain unexpectability and human interaction that AI can't quite emulate, and that give the game a whole new dimension, even for casual players. Just like playing with a ball in your courtyard isn't as funny alone as with company, even when you're fooling around and not competing.

After someone knows the basics (how to build, guard, assist, etc) theres probably no better way to teach them than giving your best

There's probably no better way to drive them away either.

Contrary to popular belief, I don't think being trashed without understanding anything is really educationnal. But if the pro halts his attack to provide a few tips and pointers, then they can learn.

Of course, it depends on the personnality. When beaten badly some people, driven with anger and revenge, will stick through hard time in until they get their revenge. Other will abandon.

[KingRaptor]

Speaking of which, the lobby needs a "for noobs" autohost so newbies can get a game going without trying to host themselves (which inevitably fails). Pros can drop in to coach them and such.

[Boirunner]

Speaking of which, the lobby needs a "for noobs" autohost so newbies can get a game going without trying to host themselves (which inevitably fails). Pros can drop in to coach them and such.

This is a very good idea. If the welcome message by the bot contained a link to a FAQ about Spring and playing and using the host and stuff, it would be perfect. Maybe Cup (or someone else?) would be willing to host one?

edit: I just realized that this is the massively offtopic StarCraft II thread. Maybe I should ask for that host somewhere else.

[Snipawolf]

See, not even THE GREAT STARCRAFT II CAN STOP THE ADDICTION TO SPRING, MUAAHAHAHhahahahahahah!

[Foxomaniac]

Speaking of which, the lobby needs a "for noobs" autohost so newbies can get a game going without trying to host themselves (which inevitably fails). Smurfs can drop in to noobstomp them and such.

Fix'd.