Absolute Annihilation 2.11

Cronyx · Post by **Cronyx** » 10 Jul 2006, 21:05

I see no practical reason why you shouldn't be able to transport multiple units early on, but still be susceptible to tech 2 defences.

Also, doing that beach head rout -- trying to send in just a few conbots to build factories -- doesn't work with a half way competent player. They'll either see you coming in on radar, and, mysteriously not attacking them, in which case they'll come find out what the hell you're doing, or, he'll get suspicious while you're busy setting up your beach head (during which time you're not attacking him, because your attention is on this other project) and he'll then capitalize on that.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 10 Jul 2006, 21:09

Drone_Fragger wrote:
What is the reload time of a screamer? 10 seconds? What is its hp? 1000? What is the speed of a hawk? 7? how many hawks can one screamer kill? 10? how long will a scremer last against 190 hawks? 2 seconds?

Bots are TOO SLOW ON LARGE MAPS. ATTACKS ARE POINTLESS WHEN, BY THE TIME THEY GET THERE, HE HAS TECH 2 DEFENCES.

I like the 1 Screamer to 190 hawk ratio... on a huge map where "AIR IS THE WIN!!!!" No one has made enougth defence to the end all metodh, sure. >.>

Btw, the map is big, maybe attacks aren't suposed to happen the first phew minutes? Maybe pepole need to expand ti'll their borders come closer? Maybe level 1 are instead usefull as unit swarms can pwn those defences on a weak spot? can't they? well maybe level 1 unit swarms should acully be usefull agsint level 2 defences.(cept antiswarm offcourse.) and so on, and so on.

Exactly. And that's what needs to be fixed some how. I say with a heavy armored, 10 unit transport.

Or, a really fast, no-armor transport. Something that can dump all it's units in under a second, but will likely not survive after that. Either way would work.

Level 1, offcourse?

That sounds JUST like the level 2 transport and the atlas. The atlas aint excakly slow either, and with many of them they can acully survive 3-4 MT's in the area. Try 15 atlas with hammers and maybe some scouts as filler. atleasth 10 will survive to drop agsint the MT defecnce if you do right. Agsint antiswarm and level 2? That's the counter. use level 2 transport at a non AA infested area.

Look, these arguements are pointless, since AA can't be balanced THE SAME on all maps. 4x4 maps then? OMFG GAURDIAN IS SO OP! Speedmetal? LEVEL 1 IS NOT AN OPTION ON METAL MAPS NERF LEVEL 2!

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 21:46

Cronyx wrote:Also, doing that beach head rout -- trying to send in just a few conbots to build factories -- doesn't work with a half way competent player. They'll either see you coming in on radar, and, mysteriously not attacking them, in which case they'll come find out what the hell you're doing, or, he'll get suspicious while you're busy setting up your beach head (during which time you're not attacking him, because your attention is on this other project) and he'll then capitalize on that.

Radar jammers.

And it doesn't take that much attention. Take three combat engineers, give them a handful of box-build orders, plop down jammers, radar, a few defences, and go do something else. Come back when they're done and blow stuff up.

Johns_Volition · Post by **Johns_Volition** » 10 Jul 2006, 22:13

Oh I have a little worry myself: It seems like the missles or the flack of the level 2 air defense turrets, at least on the arm side, seem to colide with the forceshield (I had double shields) and thus wouldn't strike the incoming aircraft

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 10 Jul 2006, 22:16

Dur. Flak is plasma after all.

Johns_Volition · Post by **Johns_Volition** » 10 Jul 2006, 22:21

i know, but it's certainly not supposed to keep back my own flack, now is it?

LOrDo · Post by **LOrDo** » 11 Jul 2006, 01:19

Flak graphics need to be changed, right now its a freaking plasma cannon.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 11 Jul 2006, 01:34

IMO the flak projectile needs to be changed to something non plasma, so it can never interfere with the shields.

In OTA, the flak projectile was invisible, and only the explosion was seen.

Something along the lines of a missle type projectile would suit the weapon just fine, then it wouldn't affect the shields.

Yes its nice to see the plasma shots fly in the air and its pretty eye candy, but when its causing issues, it needs to be fixed to "function". Pretty eye candy should always be #2 priority.

KlavoHunter · Post by **KlavoHunter** » 11 Jul 2006, 02:16

I was playing a team game earlier, and my Bertha's plasma shells were exploding against a teammate's shield.

Soulless1 · Post by **Soulless1** » 11 Jul 2006, 03:36

here's the deal with shields currently:

If fired from WITHIN (ie, a source inside or touching the edge of the shield), your shots are allowed through.

If fired from outside this, your shots CAN hit your own shields. Hence, they have an on/off toggle.

Scikar · Post by **Scikar** » 11 Jul 2006, 04:16

Re: air domination on large maps. I have seen players using aircraft to expand quickly on large maps. But I have never seen a game on a large map become aircraft only. Air defence is too effective for that. The only way you're going to punch through LRMs and flak with aircraft is with a good 3-5x as much resources invested in your airforce as your opponent has invested in his air defence. If you attempt to do that then any decent opponent will simply send in some ground units with mobile AA support, and you're dead.

Also, we must be talking insanely huge maps here, because there's no way someone should be able to hit T2 and get T2 defences up before someone can send some hammers/thuds with jethros/crashers backing up. There just isn't the metal, even allowing the extra time for the T1 units to arrive.

As for amphibious units and AA, I don't think it's necessary. There are AA hovercraft, AA ships, and AA aircraft already. If you're worried about radar then use the T2 stealth fighters. If there's lots of water, then you clearly have control of it otherwise your amphibs wouldn't get through, so use AA ships. To continue the AA support across land, send some AA hovers over once the amphibs are out of the water.

Spiking · Post by **Spiking** » 11 Jul 2006, 04:40

Drone_Fragger wrote:
What is the reload time of a screamer? 10 seconds? What is its hp? 1000? What is the speed of a hawk? 7? how many hawks can one screamer kill? 10? how long will a scremer last against 190 hawks? 2 seconds?

Bots are TOO SLOW ON LARGE MAPS. ATTACKS ARE POINTLESS WHEN, BY THE TIME THEY GET THERE, HE HAS TECH 2 DEFENCES.

Unless you're playing speedmetal, the player who expands most and has the most control of the map and the metal will win. Level 1 units are essential for claiming parts of the map early on and quickly, and for winning you the skirmishes that erupt over the land. If you actually think that air is the only option on a huge map, you must lose a lot of games- seeing as if your opponent had time to make 190 hawks, you must have had equal time to pepper your land with many screamers supportted occasionally by flak at crucial areas- and if you're a really good player you have some fighters on patrol too for that amount of metal. Of course, if you're a really, really AMAZINGLY good player, you might have decided to attack some with level 2 ground units, which you can make much faster than massed level 2 air. A couple goliaths and a few flak trucks should be more than enough to start rolling through your opponents territory, taking down expansions and claiming them for your own. Meanwhile he is panicing because he invested all his resources in an air swarm that's only one fourth done and gets eaten up by flak trucks.

Playing defensively period is a sure way to lose, you're just asking your opponent to make some "superweapon"- a krogoth, an air swarm of 500 brawlers, 5 nukes. It has nothing to do with balance.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 11 Jul 2006, 04:44

Spiking wrote:Playing defensively period is a sure way to lose, you're just asking your opponent to make some "superweapon"- a krogoth, an air swarm of 500 brawlers, 5 nukes. It has nothing to do with balance.

Quoted for truth.

Cronyx · Post by **Cronyx** » 11 Jul 2006, 05:40

I don't know what mod Spiking and the others are playing, but it isn't AA.

I can only wish that flak trucks were as effective in the game as they are in your imagination. To really be effective, half the number of your ground offensive force needs to be made up of flak trucks, and then you've seriously nerfed your offensive capability. Those things can't defend themselves against anything BUT air.

I'm not even going to try and argue; I've got way too many demos showing the supremacy of air power in every situation, and the complete futility of using mobile flak. Sure, you can defend your attacking ground force with t2 fighters, but at that rate, what was the point of sending ground at all? Just use bombers and gunships at that point.

All the arguing and dick waving in the world isn't going to change how 90% of every game that I've seen played on a big map always ends, and the fact that I think that's a problem that should, somehow, be addressed.

I really do like ground battles. They're fun. But unless the host turns off air units, or you just "agree" not to use them, it never happens naturally because of pure air supremacy. At least that's what I've seen in almost every single game as a participant or observer.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 11 Jul 2006, 06:48

Then post a replay, so you can show all us n00bs this "absolute air supremacy" you're blabbering about. If you don't have a host, use GameReplays. Then link to it here and show all of us up as hopeless newbies.

For the record, VS Gunships:

Arm Flak Cannon DPS: 360
Arm Flak Truck DPS: 200

In other words, you need about two flak trucks for every flak cannon you'd have built to defend a stationary position. That's about six to eight flak trucks for a very well-protected force. That's at most 1/3rd of any land force worth mentioning. (15 combat units + 8 flak trucks)

And you haven't given any suggestions for fixing things yet. We already have tough, multi-unit air transports. (Not intentionally, mind...) We already have viable mobile AA. So you're proposing tougher transports and multi-unit transports. What tech level? How would they be balanced with current units? How do you propose to make these units even remotely balanced on small maps?

Johns_Volition · Post by **Johns_Volition** » 11 Jul 2006, 07:11

also I see a slight problem that a swarm of flak resistant gunships can thwart any ground attack force, simply because there is no real good way of defending against those. I propose an expensive multiflak and rocket vehicle... Basically an archer on wheels, to keep ground attack forces safe.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 11 Jul 2006, 07:23

Johns_Volition wrote:also I see a slight problem that a swarm of flak resistant gunships can thwart any ground attack force, simply because there is no real good way of defending against those. I propose an expensive multiflak and rocket vehicle... Basically an archer on wheels, to keep ground attack forces safe.

Stealth fighters + flak trucks + Mercuries/Screamers up front. Pwnage that little works particularly well against. We've been over this.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 11 Jul 2006, 07:42

Egarwaen wrote:
Stealth fighters + flak trucks + Mercuries/Screamers up front. Pwnage that little works particularly well against. We've been over this.

ok, so where are your offensive units after you've spent all this metal and time on a massive Air defence?

Hunter0000 · Post by **Hunter0000** » 11 Jul 2006, 07:46

MR.D wrote: ok, so where are your offensive units after you've spent all this metal and time on a massive Air defence?

The same place your enemy's ground defenses are now that he has spent all his resources on air.

You cannot expect to be able to fully defend a ground attack with only ground units. Fighters are not that expensive and can go a long way.

Pocus · Post by **Pocus** » 11 Jul 2006, 08:33

Can we get the AA guide upgraded from 1.46 to 2.11 ? I like to know how many bullets per seconds a brawler fire when hovering at an angle of 43├é┬░ with a speed of 15.23 whateverspeedunitisusedinspring...

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.11