Absolute Annihilation 2.11

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 10 Jul 2006, 10:06

Planes are sufficently vulnerable now, no need to make them fuel reliant, resulting in some of Lindir's classically termed "Pointless Micro".

As for Amphibious units, they are weak underwater, and they don't need AA. They're supposed to be specialized and vulnerable. Support them, like everything else.

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 10 Jul 2006, 14:16

Planes are sufficently vulnerable now, no need to make them fuel reliant, resulting in some of Lindir's classically termed "Pointless Micro".

The point is : the plane become more powerfull as the map came bigger.
Plane don't need to be weaker on usual map, but it could allow keeping a good gameplay, even with 32+*32+ map.

As I was saying with gosted building : I don't know if it's a good change, but I think it's worth the try. I oculd perhaps add some unseen strategy.
Nothing it written in stone.

Sgt Doom · Post by **Sgt Doom** » 10 Jul 2006, 14:56

Planes are sufficiently weak. You're not meant to rush an enemy base with only 1 type of unit, mix it up a bit!

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 10 Jul 2006, 16:28

tahts got to be one of the most useless posts ever sgt doom. EVER. (cept in OT)

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 17:15

Torrasque wrote:The point is : the plane become more powerfull as the map came bigger.
Plane don't need to be weaker on usual map, but it could allow keeping a good gameplay, even with 32+*32+ map.

If there's an actual balance problem on a 32x32+ map, bring it up. Otherwise, don't mess with something that's balanced very well right now.

Cronyx · Post by **Cronyx** » 10 Jul 2006, 17:30

I love playing huge maps. They're just about all I play, actually. Things like Altored Earth, Battle Range, and Supreme Battlefield are the cat's pajamas for me (lets try and bring back some of those classic 1930's phrases).

Here's where the problem comes in.

You build a real bare bones, early attack force, inside the first 2 minutes, and you send them. Mainly tech 1 kbots, a vehicle or two if you can spare it.

Takes them an other two, maybe even three minutes to get there. You're now 5 minutes or more into the game by the time your initial force gets there, a force that, at the time you created it, was pretty substantial, it was something that could sufficiently hastle, even worry your opponent.

But by the time they get there, he doesn't even need to address them himself. His base is now able to defend itself sufficiently, and unattended, from this laughable assault.

No where else but in TA does Ray Kurzweil's Law of Accelerating Returns shine so brightly, with such a short term measurable curve. You can have a stable tech 2 economy and military inside the first twenty five minutes.

This is why sending units produced within the first two minutes to a location three minutes away, is very much like using time travel to attack the future. You simply aren't going to win that engagement, or even make a measurable impact. What you have done, however, is directly hand over resources to your opponent in the form of metal; resources that you could have used yourself to advance your own economy and military.

You simply can't afford to throw those resources away.

Instead, you'll send air units, because they can cover the distance much more quickly, and stand a better chance of inflicting a measurable effect on your opponent; they also don't leave behind a mess that he can clean up to boost his economy when they die.

This is why large maps always result in a spammy airforce style scenario.

I consider this a problem, though, I'm not really sure how to fix it.

I suppose one method could be to introduce a large, excessively armored (but un-armed) air transport that could freight ten units at a time. This would encourage putting the heavy guns where they need to be, but otherwise aren't worth the trouble to send under their own locomotion or to freight one at a time with an Atlas.

It would also be a bit more realistic pending established military doctrine over the last recorded five thousand years of war. Ground is taken by having men on the ground, and usually you want to transport them in large quantities.

Johns_Volition · Post by **Johns_Volition** » 10 Jul 2006, 17:40

I figure different maps force different behaviors. Maps like delta siege force the player to have extensive naval forces, but that would be hardly a bug.

But Air rads CAN be countered, especially if they are expected. (And once countered, it will force the player to develope a different strategy)
And to the superheavy transport (I assume you want it to be lvl1?) It would just be a snatch to land units in the enemy base with something like that.

And lastly, I dont really understand how you can compare AA to realistic established military doctrine? Yes maybe we have to send in foot troops, but only because we want to conquer an aera, not to completly obliterate it's inhabitants (as is the idea of "Absolute Annihiliation") and an airforce can do this just fine, as long as there isn't an advanced AA.

Cronyx · Post by **Cronyx** » 10 Jul 2006, 18:01

Johns_Volition wrote:(I assume you want it to be lvl1?) It would just be a snatch to land units in the enemy base with something like that.

That's exactly what it would be used for. And I don't see a problem with that. You fly in fast and low while ignoring most of the anti-air, drop your forces, and secure the L.Z. so that additional troops can set up an impromptu field-base. That's exactly the way it's done in real life.

Johns_Volition wrote:And lastly, I dont really understand how you can compare AA to realistic established military doctrine? Yes maybe we have to send in foot troops, but only because we want to conquer an aera, not to completly obliterate it's inhabitants (as is the idea of "Absolute Annihiliation") and an airforce can do this just fine, as long as there isn't an advanced AA.

If you don't occupy the land, your opponent will. Aircraft can't "occupy" land on their own. Of course I'm talking about both metal and geography. Metal will of course be taken from you if you don't defend it (which of course means to "occupy" the land around it). The latter of which, geography, is as real a resource as any, becuase the larger your base is, the harder it is to substnatially damage with single attacks. The more land you control, the fewer options your opponent has, and the further he must travle through hostile territory to get to get to your soft dangly bits.

And no, an airforce can not carry your war for you. First of all, wars aren't very aerodynamic (I kid, I kid...), but mostly the economy favors air defence over air offence. A properly dedicated and maintained air defnece will keep out an practically unlimited number of offensive air units.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 10 Jul 2006, 18:17

I do think some kind of amphibious AA makes sense, not mounted on the same units but a separate unit type. One advantage of amphibious attacks is that they can catch an enemy by surprise if he didn't bother with anti-sub defense and still hit land targets. By adding above-water support you become visible on his radar, negating the advantage of an amphibious attack. You don't have to support e.g. planes with ground units in order to deal with fighters, all other unit classes have units that can cover air, ground and underwater in a sufficiently combined force.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 18:33

Cronyx wrote:This is why large maps always result in a spammy airforce style scenario.

I consider this a problem, though, I'm not really sure how to fix it.

Start closer to your opponent or don't expect L1 ground warfare on large maps. It's simply not going to happen. More widely-separated starting points = higher tech level engagement. You'll get some air raiding early on, but as you point out, AA's so cheap that this can't be definitive.

Anything that attempts to fix this will probably break the game on smaller maps. For example, the superheavy, AA-proof transport? Comm bomb deluxe edition! Say good-bye to your factories!

On the other hand, remember that your opponent also cannot effectively defend so much land. So your L1 units still have a use for raiding the outlying bits of his base, forcing him to commit ground units to take more distant areas, etc.

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 10 Jul 2006, 18:46

[quote="Egarwaen"
Anything that attempts to fix this will probably break the game on smaller maps. For example, the superheavy, AA-proof transport? Comm bomb deluxe edition! Say good-bye to your factories![/quote]

Yes, Of course, tahts why you failed to build any AA even though you have tech 2.

Anyway, my point was that air completly negates any reason to build ground units on larger maps. Air is cheaper, Quicker, And can get there fast. Look at any game over 20X20. Most of the people will probebly go air. Its just not plausible going ground.

Also, an Amphib AA would be nice. As I have already said.

Cronyx · Post by **Cronyx** » 10 Jul 2006, 18:55

Exactly, DF! This guy gets it.

I'd like to play a huge map where all three tech trees are viable, not just a rush to air. Every game ends the same way, with a swarm of +200 planes coming over the horizion (or being sent over the horizion, depending on who's winning). That's boring, and way too predeictable.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 19:31

Drone_Fragger wrote:Yes, Of course, tahts why you failed to build any AA even though you have tech 2.

The original author never specified that tech 2 was what was needed. Since the rest of his post focused on tech 1, it must be assumed that he wanted the "tough transport" as an L1 unit. If we're talking about tech 2, these units already exist, and the entire discussion is totally pointless. There are already several "fast transport" solutions for T2, most of which can (intentionally or unintentionally) transport multiple units. At any rate, as long as you have a "safe zone" up front, you can use combat engineers to mass-produce an army there.

Anyway, my point was that air completly negates any reason to build ground units on larger maps. Air is cheaper, Quicker, And can get there fast. Look at any game over 20X20. Most of the people will probebly go air. Its just not plausible going ground.

Then they'll be wiped out by the first guy to mix ground and air units, or even build light ground-based AA.

Also, an Amphib AA would be nice. As I have already said.

And totally pointless and redundant, as everyone with a clue already said.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 10 Jul 2006, 19:33

I don't think it's necessarily such a big factor for the endgame as you could field an army that stands the test of time by then (and if the enemy expected you to attack only or mostly with air you could tear a big chunk out of his base that way) or simply move your ground production to an outpost closer to the enemy base but these options don't exist during the early game.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 19:35

Cronyx wrote:I'd like to play a huge map where all three tech trees are viable, not just a rush to air. Every game ends the same way, with a swarm of +200 planes coming over the horizion (or being sent over the horizion, depending on who's winning). That's boring, and way too predeictable.

So you're saying that no-one in these games bothers to build Mercuries or Screamers, or applies focused ground pressure? No wonder this strategy is so prevalent.

Mr.Frumious · Post by **Mr.Frumious** » 10 Jul 2006, 19:40

Actually, on large, difficult-to-navigate maps I find that the winners use air to conquer and control the map - but that's only the initial expansion. Once the usual business of porcing and cracking comes in, people start setting up the bots.

edit: quick question - anybody know what defenses can shoot over other defenses? I just played a game where my Annis got pwned because they couldn't shoot over HLTs.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 19:45

Mr.Frumious wrote:edit: quick question - anybody know what defenses can shoot over other defenses? I just played a game where my Annis got pwned because they couldn't shoot over HLTs.

Lasers can't fire through things. Plasma cannons can effectively fire over most other units, and the various small defences (LLTs, Beamers, HLLTs, Pitbulls, Vipers, and the pop-up lightning/flame guns) are short enough that most bigger guns can fire over them.

Make use of hills or position your defences carefully.

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 10 Jul 2006, 19:54

Egarwaen wrote:
Cronyx wrote:I'd like to play a huge map where all three tech trees are viable, not just a rush to air. Every game ends the same way, with a swarm of +200 planes coming over the horizion (or being sent over the horizion, depending on who's winning). That's boring, and way too predeictable.
So you're saying that no-one in these games bothers to build Mercuries or Screamers, or applies focused ground pressure? No wonder this strategy is so prevalent.

What is the reload time of a screamer? 10 seconds? What is its hp? 1000? What is the speed of a hawk? 7? how many hawks can one screamer kill? 10? how long will a scremer last against 190 hawks? 2 seconds?

Bots are TOO SLOW ON LARGE MAPS. ATTACKS ARE POINTLESS WHEN, BY THE TIME THEY GET THERE, HE HAS TECH 2 DEFENCES.

Cronyx · Post by **Cronyx** » 10 Jul 2006, 20:08

Exactly. And that's what needs to be fixed some how. I say with a heavy armored, 10 unit transport.

Or, a really fast, no-armor transport. Something that can dump all it's units in under a second, but will likely not survive after that. Either way would work.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 10 Jul 2006, 20:31

Drone_Fragger wrote:Bots are TOO SLOW ON LARGE MAPS. ATTACKS ARE POINTLESS WHEN, BY THE TIME THEY GET THERE, HE HAS TECH 2 DEFENCES.

There's no need to shout, I understand perfectly well that you don't know how to play.

Have you considered perhaps using airlifted combat engineers to construct an assault force closer to his defences, rather than insisting on producing all your units "in your base"? Or using an airlifted con unit to build a factory in a forward position? Then you should be capable of building up a heavy force closer to him.

Also, the T2 air transports can already supposedly transport multiple units. I believe this is a bug, and haven't tried it myself. However, by the time you hit T2, this shouldn't be a problem. A small group of Consuls on his doorstep can build Zeuses, Ambushers, flak guns (so there's your air problem taken care of, Drone), jammers, Pitbulls, Fidos, Stumpies, and Jethros. The Freaker gets you Cans, Pyros, Vipers, flak guns, Raiders, Crashers, and jammers. Thus the walk time becomes irrelevant.

Or are you calling for these transports to be in the L1 factory?

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.11