Absolute Annihilation 2.11

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 03 Jul 2006, 13:11

snipers require a LOT of micro and getting snipers with AA and support should be rewarded, snipers could have a 10% MAX increase in reloadtime maybe. but snipers aren't insane IMO

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 03 Jul 2006, 13:13

current values are:
CloakCost=75;
CloakCostMoving=200;
MinCloakDistance=72;

2500 damage
14s reload
950 range

BuildCostEnergy=14727;
BuildCostMetal=535;
BuildTime=19137;

maybe to 150/300 ? Does it need nerfig or core buffing? (sth anti sniper)

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 03 Jul 2006, 13:21

The balancing factor is that the unit uncloaks while firing, requiring excessive micro. This micro, while not pointless, detracts from a player's ability to do other things (Generally lowering his ability to defend, for example) and the unit may still be taken down by a number of ways...

1. Gunships. Speed and relative cost make this a great idea.
2. Hovercraft. They react exceedingly fast on flat terrain and can catch Snipers before they cloak once more. And yes, I know, I probably like them too much.
3. Troop Transports. Pick them up, and have them for breakfast!
4. Stunners. Well - no explanation needed.
5. EMP missiles. What else are you planning on using them for?

It's really bad, having to quote myself, but you obviously didn't read it the first time. There are cost-effective aggressive counters - those I listed are only the ones I came up with on the top of my head.

There are no needed value changes. It's a single, expensive, vulnerable unit which cannot be effectively supported without losing the very great advantage of cloaking and moving without aggressors in line of sight.

If you must tinker, however, I support...

10% MAX increase in reload time

Over anything else.

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 03 Jul 2006, 13:26

Snipers are FINE! They take a large amount of energy to fire, which can often be a problem unless you stop building units/structures (sometimes). Can't really have more than one or two unless you have fusions or geos up...

Anyway, snipers on the whole are fine, they're very fragile, and can be taken out with an ak or two. If they are operating from a defencive line, then just have htem targgeted a toaster/guardain, more often or not this will get them - I've killed snipers many a time with static plasma cannons, just keep scouting with peepeers or something on the lookout for when they fire...

If you're going to change anything, just up the cloaking costs a little, dont change anything else

Soulless1 · Post by **Soulless1** » 03 Jul 2006, 13:47

how about increasing the cloak radius a fair bit? After all, snipers are long ranged units, they should have a weakness somewhere (low health isn't a weakness if you can't shoot at them). Having a large cloak radius would mean they'd have to watch out for scout units finding them

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 03 Jul 2006, 13:57

They are fine but because of them i dont play core.

neddie, i am asking how CORE can stop snipers, not arm. Gunships can work, as can some AKs - but thats only when enemy doenst have AA or some units around snipers. troop, hover, emp, stuners - lol ? wont work.

Banisher can work (it has 700 range) but 2 shots kill it.

tbh i think snipers are fine balance wise, i (we?) just dont know how to stop them (microed snipers).

Would weaker but tracking diplomat work?

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 03 Jul 2006, 14:07

snipers are fine...
a small change like 10% reload time would be fine, CORE can use insties etc to kill small parties of snipers, even if they have support.
i mean come ON. snipers will fire innaccurately at radar blips so you need
snipers
AA
support
scouts

and if you get the cost of adv kbot lab + PW/Flea scouts + Rockos/Hammer support in air or ground units you will own them! they are really a awe tool, you just start thinking you dont stand a chance and panic building MRPCs everywhere etc. they aren't actually as effective as you may think (2 shots + to kill a HLT IIRC, and OC you need to know EXACTLY where that HLT is!

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 03 Jul 2006, 14:25

probem is here: when i get akbotlab, i build spy (invisible one) + snipers. So i allways know exact positions. After that nothing can surprise snipers

Well i wont insist on any cnahges, i love snipers. I just wont play core on ground maps.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 03 Jul 2006, 14:35

Wouldn't a large number of AKs work?

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 03 Jul 2006, 14:50

gine it really isn't a issue!

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 03 Jul 2006, 14:52

Just been testing some stuff qith squeegeez and wasp - and we've found a pretty evul exploit, which i won't detail here, none the less, it involves the word "invincible"

Caydr, make sure you check your PM's please

Molloy · Post by **Molloy** » 03 Jul 2006, 15:38

I just throw a load of peewees/storms/lv1 tanks at snipers. They move rather slowly and have long reloads so if you run a few fast units at them they can't deal with it at all.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 03 Jul 2006, 16:52

Cabbage wrote:Just been testing some stuff qith squeegeez and wasp - and we've found a pretty evul exploit, which i won't detail here, none the less, it involves the word "invincible"

Caydr, make sure you check your PM's please

Somone else reported to this to me as well. I'm not sure it's caydr's fault, most likely a bug in the engine that only his mod can exploit because of the way it's set up. I'm nearly positive it didn't used to be that ways anyways.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 03 Jul 2006, 17:01

Molloy wrote:I just throw a load of peewees/storms/lv1 tanks at snipers. They move rather slowly and have long reloads so if you run a few fast units at them they can't deal with it at all.

Problem is that snipers + support will eat those alive. Especially since (IIRC) sniper shots go through units, so they can take out multiple units with a single shot.

I think the appropriate solution is giving the Dominator a range boost to match the sniper. It feels really odd that Arm has the ultimate seige weapon and a longer-range BLoD, while the Core artillery KBot has a range that's so bad it's useless. And maybe give the DDM a slight range boost, so it can't be safely attacked by unsupported Snipers? (It's still outranged by any static plasma cannon, so you've got plenty of counters)

As for TM's comments... 20+ Recluses VS 3 Goliaths. I somehow think that works out in the Core's favour. Aren't Recluses only really good if they have hills to retreat into? I've found them to be too fragile on flat ground to really use in mass quantities.

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 03 Jul 2006, 17:03

Egarwaen wrote: As for TM's comments... 20+ Recluses VS 3 Goliaths. I somehow think that works out in the Core's favour. Aren't Recluses only really good if they have hills to retreat into? I've found them to be too fragile on flat ground to really use in mass quantities.

if you use alot of em they'll hurt eachother more than the goliaths

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 03 Jul 2006, 17:18

Egarwaen wrote:
Molloy wrote:I just throw a load of peewees/storms/lv1 tanks at snipers. They move rather slowly and have long reloads so if you run a few fast units at them they can't deal with it at all.
Problem is that snipers + support will eat those alive. Especially since (IIRC) sniper shots go through units, so they can take out multiple units with a single shot.

I think the appropriate solution is giving the Dominator a range boost to match the sniper. It feels really odd that Arm has the ultimate seige weapon and a longer-range BLoD, while the Core artillery KBot has a range that's so bad it's useless. And maybe give the DDM a slight range boost, so it can't be safely attacked by unsupported Snipers? (It's still outranged by any static plasma cannon, so you've got plenty of counters)

As for TM's comments... 20+ Recluses VS 3 Goliaths. I somehow think that works out in the Core's favour. Aren't Recluses only really good if they have hills to retreat into? I've found them to be too fragile on flat ground to really use in mass quantities.

Then add support that's strong against the enemy support. If he has units for every possible problem, well, you'll have to use superior numbers but it would be an uninteresting war if every well-balanced force still had a single unit that could tear it up easily.

Erom · Post by **Erom** » 03 Jul 2006, 17:50

You keep using snipers "with support!" as a magic bullet against any counter we throw out. Look, if someone manages to pull of,

A) a couple of snipers AND
B) scouts AND
C) enough AA cover that air attack won't work AND
D) enough ground support that they are protected anti-swarm AND
E) STILL having enough resources to match you in a L2 tank war

then they deserve to win. Look, they can't protect the snipers against everything. So they built some anti-swarm support and some AA support. That means you can out-build them with heavy land units. Unless you are losing economically, they have to counter multiple threats, so their resources are spread thinner.

unpossible · Post by **unpossible** » 03 Jul 2006, 18:04

is there any reason the fatboy wreckage is only worth 140 metal?

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 03 Jul 2006, 18:16

Erom wrote:You keep using snipers "with support!" as a magic bullet against any counter we throw out. Look, if someone manages to pull of,

A) a couple of snipers AND
B) scouts AND
C) enough AA cover that air attack won't work AND
D) enough ground support that they are protected anti-swarm AND
E) STILL having enough resources to match you in a L2 tank war

then they deserve to win. Look, they can't protect the snipers against everything. So they built some anti-swarm support and some AA support. That means you can out-build them with heavy land units. Unless you are losing economically, they have to counter multiple threats, so their resources are spread thinner.

Agreed

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 03 Jul 2006, 18:26

Erom wrote:You keep using snipers "with support!" as a magic bullet against any counter we throw out. Look, if someone manages to pull of,

A) a couple of snipers AND
B) scouts AND
C) enough AA cover that air attack won't work AND
D) enough ground support that they are protected anti-swarm AND
E) STILL having enough resources to match you in a L2 tank war

then they deserve to win. Look, they can't protect the snipers against everything. So they built some anti-swarm support and some AA support. That means you can out-build them with heavy land units. Unless you are losing economically, they have to counter multiple threats, so their resources are spread thinner.

Great. Except the Sniper range advantage means that they can usually use their own static defences as "support". The common tactic that I've seen is to have one to three snipers slip out from their defences and start blowing up yours. Then, as soon as your units move out to take them on, the snipers slip back behind their defences, which you must then assault while under fire from the snipers. As others have pointed out, sufficient air defences are pretty cheap, as are anti-swarm defences, so those counters don't work. This means you need heavy assault units, which snipers counter.

Is there some way around this I'm missing?

Yes, plasma cannons still work, but you need to find the buggers.

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.11