There are many ways you can make a superunit that's more than just "a small unit but bigger" - a mobile annihilator unit would be a good example of a "superunit" - the annihilator's poor rate of fire is a huge drawback, dispite it's impressive damage and range.Forboding Angel wrote:True, however, he likes superunits that serve a purpose. Like utility superunits. Such as a massive transport that loads units on it's back so they can shoot and stuff, therefor the units it's carrying determines it's firepower. THings like that.FizWizz wrote:Fang has always been vehemently opposed to super units...
...but land-ships would indeed be teh pwn.
On a related note, I wonder what NI will do for navy, seeing as how their land already traverses water.
Expand and Exterminate version 0.163 Released
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
Ok well before you go OOOH superunits id have to switch over to Epic EE permanently as super units wont work in reg EE cause they would be 2 big..
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=3601 <-- Epic EE download try this its fun..
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=3601 <-- Epic EE download try this its fun..
I was really hoping to get a response to my last post, but not in the way that it actually turned out, so I'm going to be a bit less subtle about what I was really interested in when I said it last time:
Is there any chance The Fanged One will enlighten me on this subject?FizWizz wrote:Fang has always been vehemently opposed to super units...
...but land-ships would indeed be teh pwn.
On a related note, I wonder what NI will do for navy, seeing as how their land already traverses water.
Ok Fizz.. Im sorry I missed your question..
I the Fanged one.. Master of EE ..have already thought this through..
NI will not have a navy.. their units in all forms will be able to travers water.. this actually gives them the advantage of easily be able to attack from the water early game.. however how they will counter ships will be massed groups of units backed up by their specialty air units which will function in a similiar manner to the ODS units in FF in that they will move at the normal speed.. this will counter aircraft..
I the Fanged one.. Master of EE ..have already thought this through..
NI will not have a navy.. their units in all forms will be able to travers water.. this actually gives them the advantage of easily be able to attack from the water early game.. however how they will counter ships will be massed groups of units backed up by their specialty air units which will function in a similiar manner to the ODS units in FF in that they will move at the normal speed.. this will counter aircraft..
ok after spending about an hour and a half testing EE with chapparal, we have come to a couple conclusions, hes going to follow up with ships info.
-------------------
the air.
Well, URC has some very powerful anti air planes, they are incredibly good with lvl 1 and lvl 2. if the opposing air is nearly sitting still or stays in a perfect line it does GREAT really powerful shots that hit hard!
if the other airplane is moving around any, the plasma rounds miss completely. like 50-80% of the time the plane misses.
This is only worsened with lvl 3 anti air plane, the lvl 3 vtol airplane flies like a damn bomber, making long winding turns and flying past the enemy air plane etc. Once again its plasma shots miss most of the time.
anti air planes need an increase in accuracy for URC
GD anti air planes seem great.... able to completely dominate the URC equivalent because of accuracy issues.
-----------
the next thing is, ground anti air.
lvl 1 anti air turrets are more effective than lvl 2 and lvl 3.
Reason being, lvl 1 anti air is so cheap you can spread it around and make your base pretty much impregnable. , a single lvl 3 anti air dies very quickly because all the air planes target it and its a single target.
The lvl 1 anti air turrets can kill something like 15 x there cost in planes before dying, probably more in some situation, alot more really.
You can make your base impregnable to lvl 2 air attacks with 15 lvl 1 anti air turrets.
This was with the air spread out etc. attacking at the weakest angle of attack.
lvl 1 anti air is just plainly overpowered. even vs lvl 3 air power, lvl 1 is just overly powerful, lvl 3 dies in droves vs lvl 1 anti air also.
This is also true for the mobile units that are lvl 1 anti air. they arent "as" powerful, but have the added benefit of mobility.
In a game where you "could" mass 35 lvl 2 ground attack planesto rape someones base, and considering they had the equal resources, and put some of it , a very small portion toward some lvl 1 defenses, they have just made themselves impregnable to nearly every air attack.
Bombers may make 1 air run against the turrets but die quickly after in there meandering flight around the target.
lvl 1 anti air turrets / units need a drop in dmg to actually make it beneficial to build lvl 2 or lvl 3.
anti air is extremely powerful as is, and dropping the lvl 1 air dmg 20-30% at the liest (imho) would most likely make the game better off in balance. forcing some of us to use lvl 2 anti air. and the cost associated with that turret/unit.
chap should follow up with another post tommorow/ today.
hope this info helps.
-------------------
the air.
Well, URC has some very powerful anti air planes, they are incredibly good with lvl 1 and lvl 2. if the opposing air is nearly sitting still or stays in a perfect line it does GREAT really powerful shots that hit hard!
if the other airplane is moving around any, the plasma rounds miss completely. like 50-80% of the time the plane misses.
This is only worsened with lvl 3 anti air plane, the lvl 3 vtol airplane flies like a damn bomber, making long winding turns and flying past the enemy air plane etc. Once again its plasma shots miss most of the time.
anti air planes need an increase in accuracy for URC
GD anti air planes seem great.... able to completely dominate the URC equivalent because of accuracy issues.
-----------
the next thing is, ground anti air.
lvl 1 anti air turrets are more effective than lvl 2 and lvl 3.
Reason being, lvl 1 anti air is so cheap you can spread it around and make your base pretty much impregnable. , a single lvl 3 anti air dies very quickly because all the air planes target it and its a single target.
The lvl 1 anti air turrets can kill something like 15 x there cost in planes before dying, probably more in some situation, alot more really.
You can make your base impregnable to lvl 2 air attacks with 15 lvl 1 anti air turrets.
This was with the air spread out etc. attacking at the weakest angle of attack.
lvl 1 anti air is just plainly overpowered. even vs lvl 3 air power, lvl 1 is just overly powerful, lvl 3 dies in droves vs lvl 1 anti air also.
This is also true for the mobile units that are lvl 1 anti air. they arent "as" powerful, but have the added benefit of mobility.
In a game where you "could" mass 35 lvl 2 ground attack planesto rape someones base, and considering they had the equal resources, and put some of it , a very small portion toward some lvl 1 defenses, they have just made themselves impregnable to nearly every air attack.
Bombers may make 1 air run against the turrets but die quickly after in there meandering flight around the target.
lvl 1 anti air turrets / units need a drop in dmg to actually make it beneficial to build lvl 2 or lvl 3.
anti air is extremely powerful as is, and dropping the lvl 1 air dmg 20-30% at the liest (imho) would most likely make the game better off in balance. forcing some of us to use lvl 2 anti air. and the cost associated with that turret/unit.
chap should follow up with another post tommorow/ today.
hope this info helps.
Of course you cant win versus l1 anti-air by masing planes.
Planes (URC and GD ones) are supposed to be fast response and support for your ground forces. Whenever your enemy has anti-air, you should kill that with ground and then use air, or use them in a tight timeframe, but never attack anti-air with any kind of air.
I like lvl 1 AA being effective, it makes sure that you cant have something like a stupid "brawler-rush" in EE. If something needs to be changed, i would only like to see the lvl 2 and 3 AA become more efective, not the lvl 1 less.
The solution to the lvl 1 AA spam is such, as i tried in many games:
You can use transport planes to make your ground units flank your enemy and have them take out the AA first, then send in ground attack planes.
You can use bombers to kill the AA positions that are nearest to you, then send in consecutivewaves to kill the ones further away, then use ground attack planes. Lvl 2 bombers can do this, lvl 3 is even better.
You can use ground attack planes to stop advancing ground forces.
You CANT use ground attack planes to attack an AA position.
The strentgh of the emplaced AA lies in its spamaility, if you take it away, it will be victim to bombers and Air to Ground.
Btw: the est thing versus air is still the lvl 1 interceptor copter,vtol, its even more spamable and fast enough to chase enemy air down. Set these on patrol around your base and you are safe from bombers.
IN cinclusion:
Only make lvl 2 and 3 AA stronger, not the lvl 1 weaker or less spamable, its fine.
Planes (URC and GD ones) are supposed to be fast response and support for your ground forces. Whenever your enemy has anti-air, you should kill that with ground and then use air, or use them in a tight timeframe, but never attack anti-air with any kind of air.
I like lvl 1 AA being effective, it makes sure that you cant have something like a stupid "brawler-rush" in EE. If something needs to be changed, i would only like to see the lvl 2 and 3 AA become more efective, not the lvl 1 less.
The solution to the lvl 1 AA spam is such, as i tried in many games:
You can use transport planes to make your ground units flank your enemy and have them take out the AA first, then send in ground attack planes.
You can use bombers to kill the AA positions that are nearest to you, then send in consecutivewaves to kill the ones further away, then use ground attack planes. Lvl 2 bombers can do this, lvl 3 is even better.
You can use ground attack planes to stop advancing ground forces.
You CANT use ground attack planes to attack an AA position.
The strentgh of the emplaced AA lies in its spamaility, if you take it away, it will be victim to bombers and Air to Ground.
Btw: the est thing versus air is still the lvl 1 interceptor copter,vtol, its even more spamable and fast enough to chase enemy air down. Set these on patrol around your base and you are safe from bombers.
IN cinclusion:
Only make lvl 2 and 3 AA stronger, not the lvl 1 weaker or less spamable, its fine.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
I have to agree here as well. You may or may not notice but many players don't wait untill they have 10 or so ground attack craft, most of them sent them in maybe 5 at a time, and more often than not they don't scout the area first.Andreask wrote:Of course you cant win versus l1 anti-air by masing planes.
Planes (URC and GD ones) are supposed to be fast response and support for your ground forces. Whenever your enemy has anti-air, you should kill that with ground and then use air, or use them in a tight timeframe, but never attack anti-air with any kind of air.
I like lvl 1 AA being effective, it makes sure that you cant have something like a stupid "brawler-rush" in EE. If something needs to be changed, i would only like to see the lvl 2 and 3 AA become more efective, not the lvl 1 less.
The solution to the lvl 1 AA spam is such, as i tried in many games:
You can use transport planes to make your ground units flank your enemy and have them take out the AA first, then send in ground attack planes.
You can use bombers to kill the AA positions that are nearest to you, then send in consecutivewaves to kill the ones further away, then use ground attack planes. Lvl 2 bombers can do this, lvl 3 is even better.
You can use ground attack planes to stop advancing ground forces.
You CANT use ground attack planes to attack an AA position.
The strentgh of the emplaced AA lies in its spamaility, if you take it away, it will be victim to bombers and Air to Ground.
Btw: the est thing versus air is still the lvl 1 interceptor copter,vtol, its even more spamable and fast enough to chase enemy air down. Set these on patrol around your base and you are safe from bombers.
IN cinclusion:
Only make lvl 2 and 3 AA stronger, not the lvl 1 weaker or less spamable, its fine.
Andreask-
Since when can you use such godly strategy to knock out anti air in the middle of my base/ behind my army/ somewhere in the distance? Since when would i NOT see a force sitting on the side of my base / behind my army waiting to knock out my anti air and not move to push you back. or better yet, go rape your base at the same time your trying to rape mine.
Since when would your force be larger than mine when i put down 1/5th (more like 1/20th if your gonna be using lvl 3) the resources in anti air, as you did in planes?
these are the questions I would like for you to answer.
maybe against the ai i could see something like that succeeding.
not verse a human (with radar).
actually, your idea doesnt even make sense vs lvl 1 mobile anti air units that are following my army around. sitting in the back out of the range of your units.
Are you going to do a delta team Special forces green beret"strike force" behind my army to take those out? Im sorry but its just never been done. Seriously. Ive never seen someone try to get air cavalry and just outflank me and do pin point strikes on all the available anti air units in the area.
how are you going to "target" my anti air units, unless your going to try to micro them to uberdom. all 10 of them im packing with my army of 30 units usually hard to point out in a fight, i know, ive tried.
or how about you keep sending kamikaze attacks of lvl 3 air bombers against my lvl 1 anti air turrets /units that are spread out around my area of control.
that isnt cost effective and never will be Andreask, lvl 3 air is even more expensive obviously, and 9 lvl 1 anti air turrets would drop most any attacking force of lvl 3 you sent. arent lvl 3 air planes around 2400 metal a piece?
and your willing to kamikaze them against turrets that cost 245 metal?
if you did kill any, a person would just rebuild them in the time it took you to rebuild your giant air flottilla. and make the defenses even more stout.
--------------------
guys listen.
the point im making is, if i go anti air, and you go air, im gonna have more land forces to whoop your ass, every time. if you try the above idea of sending air raids against my turrets/ units, your putting yourself further and further behind in the race for a land army.
the cost is large for air planes (2,000 something metal just for the lvl 2 factory) , the lvl 1 anti air is too effective for cost., with the metal you just spent on your lvl 2 air factory, i just built 9 x 245 anti air turrets/units, thats before you have ANY air.
i can build 9-10 anti air turrets for that cost.
if you make lvl 2 and lvl 3 anti air even better, why even bother building planes? seriously.
When obviously they are going to be shot down in a nano second with a single lvl 2 and lvl 3 anti air tower standing that just got Buffed, for NO reason. Oh i know the reason you dont want a brawler rush.
Anti air turrets are very cheap, compared to "other" turrets they are insanely cheap for how powerful they are. lvl 1 is 245 metal and they can take out forces of planes that boggle the mind.
they arent balanced like the other turrets are. they were uber (godlike) from the factory. all im asking for is a 20-30% adjustment on them to make them less godly, yet make it so air power is more balanced in a game.
i dont think fang even adjusted them yet, in fear of people complaining about some kind of "brawler rush", (i could be wrong here, maybe i am)
Brawler rush comes from Absolute Annihilation, This is where Absolute Annihilation completely stops a "brawler rush". If you actually build Anti Air the brawler rush fails, or hits unimportant things.
its hard for alot of people in AA to do this, so they complain, thats the reason brawlers are worthless in AA now. this all started back in 1.4x of Absolute Annihilation and progressively got worse from what i hear.
AA obviously has a larger user base, with more new players, and caydr tries to listen to all players :)
i would like to set up a game Andreask, you vs me
you can try any crazy air tactic youd like vs me, and i wont bother going air.
ill even let you do that one crazy idea you think will work, hell i wont build radar just so i can prove the point that this strategy would never work.
you know the one where you use air transports to drop an army on the Side of my base/ Behind my base / Behind my army, and whipe out all my anti air turrets, while my units sit idly by and dont do anything.
so that you have "just barely" the ability to attack with airplanes.
look, talk is cheap, im not bothering with another "possible scenario" where, "this is going to happen" and "this will then happen" and try to point out its flaws again.
so since talk is cheap
Andreask lets 1v1, just to prove a couple points.
you can pull off any elite uber special forces , air cav uses you like. with air raids etc. you can flank all you like, we can even do a big metal map for a 1v1, so you have the ability to actually GET TO lvl 3 at some point with your air.
I wont even go air, ill just be sitting around with lvl 1 anti air turrets/units knocking everything out of the sky you may try to send.
do you want to andreask?
Since when can you use such godly strategy to knock out anti air in the middle of my base/ behind my army/ somewhere in the distance? Since when would i NOT see a force sitting on the side of my base / behind my army waiting to knock out my anti air and not move to push you back. or better yet, go rape your base at the same time your trying to rape mine.
Since when would your force be larger than mine when i put down 1/5th (more like 1/20th if your gonna be using lvl 3) the resources in anti air, as you did in planes?
these are the questions I would like for you to answer.
maybe against the ai i could see something like that succeeding.
not verse a human (with radar).
actually, your idea doesnt even make sense vs lvl 1 mobile anti air units that are following my army around. sitting in the back out of the range of your units.
Are you going to do a delta team Special forces green beret"strike force" behind my army to take those out? Im sorry but its just never been done. Seriously. Ive never seen someone try to get air cavalry and just outflank me and do pin point strikes on all the available anti air units in the area.
how are you going to "target" my anti air units, unless your going to try to micro them to uberdom. all 10 of them im packing with my army of 30 units usually hard to point out in a fight, i know, ive tried.
or how about you keep sending kamikaze attacks of lvl 3 air bombers against my lvl 1 anti air turrets /units that are spread out around my area of control.
that isnt cost effective and never will be Andreask, lvl 3 air is even more expensive obviously, and 9 lvl 1 anti air turrets would drop most any attacking force of lvl 3 you sent. arent lvl 3 air planes around 2400 metal a piece?
and your willing to kamikaze them against turrets that cost 245 metal?
if you did kill any, a person would just rebuild them in the time it took you to rebuild your giant air flottilla. and make the defenses even more stout.
--------------------
guys listen.
the point im making is, if i go anti air, and you go air, im gonna have more land forces to whoop your ass, every time. if you try the above idea of sending air raids against my turrets/ units, your putting yourself further and further behind in the race for a land army.
the cost is large for air planes (2,000 something metal just for the lvl 2 factory) , the lvl 1 anti air is too effective for cost., with the metal you just spent on your lvl 2 air factory, i just built 9 x 245 anti air turrets/units, thats before you have ANY air.
i can build 9-10 anti air turrets for that cost.
if you make lvl 2 and lvl 3 anti air even better, why even bother building planes? seriously.
When obviously they are going to be shot down in a nano second with a single lvl 2 and lvl 3 anti air tower standing that just got Buffed, for NO reason. Oh i know the reason you dont want a brawler rush.
Anti air turrets are very cheap, compared to "other" turrets they are insanely cheap for how powerful they are. lvl 1 is 245 metal and they can take out forces of planes that boggle the mind.
they arent balanced like the other turrets are. they were uber (godlike) from the factory. all im asking for is a 20-30% adjustment on them to make them less godly, yet make it so air power is more balanced in a game.
i dont think fang even adjusted them yet, in fear of people complaining about some kind of "brawler rush", (i could be wrong here, maybe i am)
Brawler rush comes from Absolute Annihilation, This is where Absolute Annihilation completely stops a "brawler rush". If you actually build Anti Air the brawler rush fails, or hits unimportant things.
its hard for alot of people in AA to do this, so they complain, thats the reason brawlers are worthless in AA now. this all started back in 1.4x of Absolute Annihilation and progressively got worse from what i hear.
AA obviously has a larger user base, with more new players, and caydr tries to listen to all players :)
i would like to set up a game Andreask, you vs me
you can try any crazy air tactic youd like vs me, and i wont bother going air.
ill even let you do that one crazy idea you think will work, hell i wont build radar just so i can prove the point that this strategy would never work.
you know the one where you use air transports to drop an army on the Side of my base/ Behind my base / Behind my army, and whipe out all my anti air turrets, while my units sit idly by and dont do anything.
so that you have "just barely" the ability to attack with airplanes.
look, talk is cheap, im not bothering with another "possible scenario" where, "this is going to happen" and "this will then happen" and try to point out its flaws again.
so since talk is cheap
Andreask lets 1v1, just to prove a couple points.
you can pull off any elite uber special forces , air cav uses you like. with air raids etc. you can flank all you like, we can even do a big metal map for a 1v1, so you have the ability to actually GET TO lvl 3 at some point with your air.
I wont even go air, ill just be sitting around with lvl 1 anti air turrets/units knocking everything out of the sky you may try to send.
do you want to andreask?
I have a thought: NI having fast onwater units at L1 incidental to their regular L1 units will mean that NI has a HUGE expansion advantage at L1. So, to reduce that advantage, how about the L1 NI units are amphibious (underwater) rather than hovercraft? That would slow them down. You can give all the combat units depthcharge launchers/torpedos that correspond in range/style to their land weapons (but half range, and extra damage when underwater to make underwater combat different). This makes them viable (but weak) at L1 combat, and slows their underwater expansion at L1.Fanger wrote:Ok Fizz.. Im sorry I missed your question..
I the Fanged one.. Master of EE ..have already thought this through..
NI will not have a navy.. their units in all forms will be able to travers water.. this actually gives them the advantage of easily be able to attack from the water early game.. however how they will counter ships will be massed groups of units backed up by their specialty air units which will function in a similiar manner to the ODS units in FF in that they will move at the normal speed.. this will counter aircraft..
NI ground forces are faster at all levels, their compromise is that they have no staying power and can't defend well.Pxtl wrote:I have a thought: NI having fast onwater units at L1 incidental to their regular L1 units will mean that NI has a HUGE expansion advantage at L1. So, to reduce that advantage, how about the L1 NI units are amphibious (underwater) rather than hovercraft? That would slow them down. You can give all the combat units depthcharge launchers/torpedos that correspond in range/style to their land weapons (but half range, and extra damage when underwater to make underwater combat different). This makes them viable (but weak) at L1 combat, and slows their underwater expansion at L1.Fanger wrote:Ok Fizz.. Im sorry I missed your question..
I the Fanged one.. Master of EE ..have already thought this through..
NI will not have a navy.. their units in all forms will be able to travers water.. this actually gives them the advantage of easily be able to attack from the water early game.. however how they will counter ships will be massed groups of units backed up by their specialty air units which will function in a similiar manner to the ODS units in FF in that they will move at the normal speed.. this will counter aircraft..