I'm not talking about killing it, I'm talking about needing it. You're not always going to know they're building something, nor exactly where it is.TradeMark wrote:Usually i try to destroy the dangerous object, not the shield... after that i try to destroy the shield, but with bertha it is impossible. (too much random).Eaglebird wrote:Nooo, because then it's pointless to build them if your enemy has just been building heavy artillery. Most people I know of don't get one bertha, they get 2 or 3, before actually firing it. Sometimes same with the Vulcan/Buzzsaw
And when the inside shield range is small, you can still shoot it with bertha bullets, they have large damage area, and every bullet will not be prevented.
The AA deflector shield discussion
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OverDamage
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mm yeah that...or you could spend the money on units. think about it in what realistic setting are you going to use one of those ffs. berthas and timmys are a bit too expensive to be used except vs a porcer. but there is no reason to use a vulcan in AA unless you are a SM noob or a starnoob or a regular noobVulcan's and Buzzsaw's DEMAND a repulser. And if you won't provide it......I just might
The RFLRPC's I don't think are so n00bish. They're less accurate and lower range, yes, but hey, if you can build one, it saves you from build four or five berthas, and they're good for just blowing bits out of a base. Whether you can hit something or not, you're still going to damage other stuff anyway.Pxtl wrote:You mean there are players who actuall build RFLRPCs? Caydr himself has said that the units are silly and he'd take them out if he didn't want to keep all the Cavedog stuff.
Besides, they were made for a reason. I think that's it there.
Actually, I think the new shield systems (once buffed a little, as already planned) will actually cement the role of the RFLRPC's as siege machines - they break down shields in seconds and their poor accuracy doesn't matter against a shield-bubble-sized target. Seems right to me, especially as they cost more than shield emitters.
therefore I would advise we keep the current shield mechanics, but that the balance goes more like
one bertha < shield
two berthas (approx) = shield, so a little firepower either way will tip the balance.
three or more berthas > shield within a minute or so
vulcan\buzzsaw >> shield - ie about what they do now, beating them down in about 10 seconds, and defeat even multiple shields with relative ease.
I think a metal cost of about 1.9 berthas and approximately the same buildtime sounds about right if the emitters are like that.
Thats pretty much the balance Cadyr's already implemented anyways (I think), though I'm not sure on the precise numbers. So how about it?
therefore I would advise we keep the current shield mechanics, but that the balance goes more like
one bertha < shield
two berthas (approx) = shield, so a little firepower either way will tip the balance.
three or more berthas > shield within a minute or so
vulcan\buzzsaw >> shield - ie about what they do now, beating them down in about 10 seconds, and defeat even multiple shields with relative ease.
I think a metal cost of about 1.9 berthas and approximately the same buildtime sounds about right if the emitters are like that.
Thats pretty much the balance Cadyr's already implemented anyways (I think), though I'm not sure on the precise numbers. So how about it?
I prefer the dynamics and visual aspects of the repulsor, the "hard shields" seems like a step backwards in my opinion.
Biggest thing to help with balencing the repulsors would be.
#1. Recharge is directly dependent on energy storage levels, Similar to how Metal-makers will switch on at peak power levels to conserve E-Spending(this would require a multi-stage AI based on current Metalmaker code).
#2. Burns energy on a "damage per hit basis" rather than just sucking up the same ammount for each/any shot deflected.
#3. Allow bombs to penetrate the shield unaffected by the deflection, making it "plasma only repulsion".
Biggest thing to help with balencing the repulsors would be.
#1. Recharge is directly dependent on energy storage levels, Similar to how Metal-makers will switch on at peak power levels to conserve E-Spending(this would require a multi-stage AI based on current Metalmaker code).
#2. Burns energy on a "damage per hit basis" rather than just sucking up the same ammount for each/any shot deflected.
#3. Allow bombs to penetrate the shield unaffected by the deflection, making it "plasma only repulsion".
Question about the reflector shield variant...
Would it be possible to load the shield in the same way as the new shield?
So that the shield could drain like 1000E for a long time to load the shield so that it could reflect maybe 10 berta shots before it starts it's regular massive drain?
And after the bombardment has ended, it would load that buffer again?
I'm not sure if this makes any sense...
Would it be possible to load the shield in the same way as the new shield?
So that the shield could drain like 1000E for a long time to load the shield so that it could reflect maybe 10 berta shots before it starts it's regular massive drain?
And after the bombardment has ended, it would load that buffer again?
I'm not sure if this makes any sense...
This is a guess, but what I think he said was..
Can the shields be set to drain completely or with minimum drain untill the shield is drained, then start the recharge cycle with a high recharge cost?
Basically making the shield a self powered unit untill drained, at which time it would enter the recharge cycle, refill the shields to maximum, then stop charging, repeat cycle of drain, fail, recharge....
Gimme back the repulsors plz, they worked perfectly untill the change to this hard shields..
Can the shields be set to drain completely or with minimum drain untill the shield is drained, then start the recharge cycle with a high recharge cost?
Basically making the shield a self powered unit untill drained, at which time it would enter the recharge cycle, refill the shields to maximum, then stop charging, repeat cycle of drain, fail, recharge....
Gimme back the repulsors plz, they worked perfectly untill the change to this hard shields..
Sort of offtopic, but, do you realize a Vulcan spits out over 25 times the firepower of a Bertha? Something like 3500 damage per second.
This in mind, I've devised a formula to make the costs for vulcans, buzzsaws more accurate to their firepower.
Exact formula is:
RFLRPC DPS divided by LRPC DPS divided by (RFLRPC accuracy divided by LRPC accuracy) equals relative effective firepower.
It comes out to rougly 8.7 and 8.1 (vulc/buzz) if I remember right. So I reduce these numbers by a fair amount to give them more cost appeal and then multiply bertha/intimidator costs/buildtime by them to determine what a vulcan/buzzsaw "should" be priced at.
I was floored to find that the values I'd already given them were almost exactly what they "should" have been
However, their HP was way off (being only about 2x the hp of their lesser equivalent), so that's now much higher. Since they're now much harder to destroy, even in mid-construction, they might actually qualify as a worthwhile investment.
This in mind, I've devised a formula to make the costs for vulcans, buzzsaws more accurate to their firepower.
Exact formula is:
RFLRPC DPS divided by LRPC DPS divided by (RFLRPC accuracy divided by LRPC accuracy) equals relative effective firepower.
It comes out to rougly 8.7 and 8.1 (vulc/buzz) if I remember right. So I reduce these numbers by a fair amount to give them more cost appeal and then multiply bertha/intimidator costs/buildtime by them to determine what a vulcan/buzzsaw "should" be priced at.
I was floored to find that the values I'd already given them were almost exactly what they "should" have been
However, their HP was way off (being only about 2x the hp of their lesser equivalent), so that's now much higher. Since they're now much harder to destroy, even in mid-construction, they might actually qualify as a worthwhile investment.
A vulcan, for instance, has 34440 HP to a Bertha's 4200.
After some testing, I've found that shields aren't going to work exactly as I said. They will take 3 minutes to charge and require at least 50 minutes to bring down with a bertha or intimidator. However, that time is reduced to just about 3 minutes when you add another bertha/timmy to the mix.
Short of reducing shield costs so it's something comparable to the nuke, antinuke relationship (which I'm now doing), this is probably the best balance there's going to be. There's not much else to do with the two relevant values, capacity and charge speed.
For instance, too high a capacity and the time required to charge the shield fully grows quite long. This can be offset by increasing the charge rate, but this will render the shield virtually immune to attack since it can regenerate faster than most any weapon can cause damage. So what should it be balanced for, 1 shield equals 2 berthas? Or 1 equals 1? Why render a single bertha largely obsolete while making 2 berthas the minimum thing worth having? In that case, I'm basically doubling the cost to shell someone, or in other words, doubling the cost to build a bertha (which would be very unpopular).
I think the best solution is to make it like so: 1 shield can be brought down, albeit after a long duration, by 1 bertha.
After some testing, I've found that shields aren't going to work exactly as I said. They will take 3 minutes to charge and require at least 50 minutes to bring down with a bertha or intimidator. However, that time is reduced to just about 3 minutes when you add another bertha/timmy to the mix.
Short of reducing shield costs so it's something comparable to the nuke, antinuke relationship (which I'm now doing), this is probably the best balance there's going to be. There's not much else to do with the two relevant values, capacity and charge speed.
For instance, too high a capacity and the time required to charge the shield fully grows quite long. This can be offset by increasing the charge rate, but this will render the shield virtually immune to attack since it can regenerate faster than most any weapon can cause damage. So what should it be balanced for, 1 shield equals 2 berthas? Or 1 equals 1? Why render a single bertha largely obsolete while making 2 berthas the minimum thing worth having? In that case, I'm basically doubling the cost to shell someone, or in other words, doubling the cost to build a bertha (which would be very unpopular).
I think the best solution is to make it like so: 1 shield can be brought down, albeit after a long duration, by 1 bertha.
Last edited by Caydr on 24 Jun 2006, 17:50, edited 2 times in total.
How about giving diffrent versions to ARM / CORE?
Caydr,
I'd like to see a diffrence in the core and the arm shield generator. I'll leave the rest up to you.
Thanks,
Asgeir
I'd like to see a diffrence in the core and the arm shield generator. I'll leave the rest up to you.
Thanks,
Asgeir