If the action version has no chance of extra resources, then my initial attempt at strategy would be to be cautioius in attack. Any careless raid that doesn't do real damage will just feed metal to the opponent. There would be no advantage in raiding to try and kill economy buildings, unless you can find and kill a factory
I would try to scout out the enemy position, and then outrange him. For instance set up a screen of rockos and then try and build a guardian behind it, drawing the enemy out to die on the rocko line.
If defensive structures are eliminated then similar principals still apply, but to a lesser extent. If you neatly arrange mobile artillery on a hill protected by a line of tanks, you have an advantage over an attacker who will come at that line somewhat disorganised. Although the defensive advantage would be nowhere near as strong as with defensive structures available.
Perhaps just release a couple beta versions of the mutator and get some playtest reports?
Absolute Annihilation 1.5
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Deathblane
- Posts: 505
- Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 01:22
On a slightly different note coudl the two l2 core plasma atrillery peices have the same range, as then they would be equally attractive even when your economy is good enough to afford either.
Changing topic again would it be possible for these proposed anti-air k-bots to have a heavy missile instead of flack, so they would compliment the existing flackers in a late, ballenced army.
Changing topic again would it be possible for these proposed anti-air k-bots to have a heavy missile instead of flack, so they would compliment the existing flackers in a late, ballenced army.
@Deathblane: Um... I'm not sure why I'd want to make both of these artillery units have the same range. If they have the same range, why build one over the other? They're artillery. One's slower, more powerful and more expensive? Mm... dunno if that'd be a good enough excuse. Tremor's supposed to be the "ultimate" artillery vehicle.
The ever-missing anti-air kbots will have a slow firing flak but their main feature will be a good-quality missile for killing fighters and bombers, whereas anti-air vehicles are best against gunships.
@Jellyman, yeah, I'm having more thoughts about this (A) variant. It seemed like an interesting idea, but then I realized... uh... ok, if there's no resources to kill... why even attack in the first place?
So, I've decided this's what I'll do. I'll have regular metal extractors (like, L1 I mean, and not twilights/exploiters) which will be buffed up a bit. Where one might normally produce 2 metal, these will produce 3. They'll also have enough HP to not collape if there's a lot of wind. Also there will be similar changes made to the vanilla solars. Also included will be geothermals - these will probably produce a decent amount of both energy and metal, so that the strategic locations intended by map makers will still exist.
So, Action Absolute Annihilation will basically be intended for short-ish games, with lots of action, very little porcing possible, and a very simlified resource model so that you needn't worry about keeping your M/E up all the time so much.
~~~
This "tiered" movement speed thing might be worth looking into, but I'd probably have more like 4 or 5 tiers for L2 and each unit being seperate in L3.
The ever-missing anti-air kbots will have a slow firing flak but their main feature will be a good-quality missile for killing fighters and bombers, whereas anti-air vehicles are best against gunships.
@Jellyman, yeah, I'm having more thoughts about this (A) variant. It seemed like an interesting idea, but then I realized... uh... ok, if there's no resources to kill... why even attack in the first place?
So, I've decided this's what I'll do. I'll have regular metal extractors (like, L1 I mean, and not twilights/exploiters) which will be buffed up a bit. Where one might normally produce 2 metal, these will produce 3. They'll also have enough HP to not collape if there's a lot of wind. Also there will be similar changes made to the vanilla solars. Also included will be geothermals - these will probably produce a decent amount of both energy and metal, so that the strategic locations intended by map makers will still exist.
So, Action Absolute Annihilation will basically be intended for short-ish games, with lots of action, very little porcing possible, and a very simlified resource model so that you needn't worry about keeping your M/E up all the time so much.
~~~
This "tiered" movement speed thing might be worth looking into, but I'd probably have more like 4 or 5 tiers for L2 and each unit being seperate in L3.
Last edited by Caydr on 16 Jun 2006, 04:58, edited 1 time in total.
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What a stupid Email name
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 15 Jun 2006, 02:16
Add bulldozers
I remember seeing a post while ago about wreakages being unable to passed very well and level 1 units dont do so well, make BULLDOZERS for lvl 1 vehicle plants, lots of hp, krogoth crushing strength, and you can get bulldozers if you probably look around in the ta community
The more that is said about the A variant, the more I like it..
If the commander is the only unit generating this revenue of x-Metal and x-Energy, if he's gone you're basically totally screwed.
This is just the kind of thing you were looking for to make combombing anytime during a game, the suicidal blow.
If the commander is the only unit generating this revenue of x-Metal and x-Energy, if he's gone you're basically totally screwed.
This is just the kind of thing you were looking for to make combombing anytime during a game, the suicidal blow.
Precisely, MRD.
WASEN: What a stupid name. Anyway, yeah I've had that idea for quite a while now, actually since 0.1... Would be a simple matter to take Z's fancy-scripted bulldozers and just make them have uberhigh crushstrength, a much simpler unit for much simpler... uh... stuff.... and such.
Going to bed now...
WASEN: What a stupid name. Anyway, yeah I've had that idea for quite a while now, actually since 0.1... Would be a simple matter to take Z's fancy-scripted bulldozers and just make them have uberhigh crushstrength, a much simpler unit for much simpler... uh... stuff.... and such.
Going to bed now...
what are u arguing about ffs? AA needs simple, small tuning. For big changes like unified speed go play or make other mods.
And MM's are one of best feature in this game. In all other RTSs' u know u will win when u have more than 60% of map. In TA u can get nasty surprise when u have map but enemy got lvl2 eco and units and u loose. :)
AA is best mod around and leave it on top plz
And MM's are one of best feature in this game. In all other RTSs' u know u will win when u have more than 60% of map. In TA u can get nasty surprise when u have map but enemy got lvl2 eco and units and u loose. :)
AA is best mod around and leave it on top plz
i noticed the same. Looks like that when air unit is above skeeter it wont fire. It fires only when unit is at edge of skeeters range. So maybe sth with fireing arc?NOiZE wrote:Quite some times Searchers and Skeeters don't fire their Anti-Air missles, don't know for sure why...
I hope you can take a look @ them.
Hey, don't knock the speed suggestion... it does have it's merits. Mainly tying it into a few groups would tune the game and stream line it at the same time. As I suggested before, maybe three groups per type per level...ginekolog wrote:what are u arguing about ffs? AA needs simple, small tuning. For big changes like unified speed go play or make other mods.
And MM's are one of best feature in this game. In all other RTSs' u know u will win when u have more than 60% of map. In TA u can get nasty surprise when u have map but enemy got lvl2 eco and units and u loose. :)
AA is best mod around and leave it on top plz
HELL NO YOU WILL STANDARDIZE THE SPEEDS!
Imagine what this will do.
the 2 ever happy units AK and peewee.
Atm the AK is superior to peewee in _Small_amounts IE 3 aks vs 4 peewees the aks will win BUT attacking with 20 peewees against 25 aks peewees will win.
This is partly due to the HP/damage/SPEED of the units. if you standardize this you make core aks obsolete compared to arm peewee. OR you would force caydr to make the AK a straight CLONE of Peewee to balance them out , which is absolutely retarded. about other units: this gives minor advantages if employed well (_use of skills_) In large plain maps if the enemy spams hammers you get rockos which are a bit faster than hammers. then you micro the rockos to be just outside the hammer's range while shooting at them.
IF YOU STANDARDIZE the speeds this will happen automatically without any decent micro skills required. just go near the hammers and set move order away, that's it.
CURRENTLY this needs a lot of attention WHICH BALANCES them.
Metal makers are NEEDED in TA. they are one of the _Greatest_ ideas of the whole game, whilst you need to expand to get metal from extractors and from reclaimable rocks etc. You can convert one of your resources to another. NO OTHER STRATEGY GAME USES THIS!( i mean being able to only convert A-> B but not b->A)
"but the other player can just porch in and get nukes with his incredible met maker spam"
NO NO NO NO NO
The metal makers cost 100 energy PER SECOND to give 1 metal . it takes 5 CONSTRUCTION BOTS to build solars continuously to KEEP IN PAR with 1 con building met makers continuously.
Whereas you need ONLY 1 con to get metal extractors, with sufficient resources it takes around 5 second to build a unit capable of getting around ~1-2 metal per second while you need 5 solars for 1 metal maker (nearly 600 METAL) for JUST 1 metal maker!
The whole idea is that you can keep ESCALATING the battle continuously after the mex spots in the map run out.
Imagine a battle with 2 equally skilled players. Both start with kbots, raiding some at start, after that going to tier2 , getting some heavy stuff. at this point THE GROWING STOPS. 0 metal boost would be possible without metal makers. The battle would reach the PEAK.
If you instead keep the metal makers. both of them do the same things , after the metal spots run out they will start to grow their resources with the use of the metal makers MAKING THE BATTLES EVEN MORE BIG!.
why in the earth would you want to remove one of the greatest ideas out of this game
its like cutting mexes and energy facilities out and getting peons and crystal veins and vespene gas to maps we have.
enough of this useless bull**** about units being overpowered and needing nerf or boost compared to others.
WHAT THE ENEMY BUILDS YOU CAN BUILD TOO!
"eek the enemy uses akspam its OP , OP i tell you! it needs NERF!"
What stops you from building them?
"but im arm !!!"
Go cry emo kid, get LLTS and hammers.
DO NOT make this a "Starcraft:total annihilation"
The whole idea is that you have many possibilities, many ideas, many tactics to use!
whereas other games go "build mcv, build barracks, rush infantry A out, rush infantry B out until enemy is dead"
NO this is NOT a strategy game. its called repeat and repeat till you drop.
TA is strategy game.
the enemy rushes with aks? get llts
The enemy gets llts? get rockos
The enemy gets rockos? get bladewings
The enemy gets bladewings? get defenders or fighters
ETC ETC ETC the ideas and counters are nigh unlimited, whereas people say
"unit B and building C are useless"
in truth they mean " i haven't used unit B and unit C so they need to die"
_In real world_
"i dont eat hamburgers, i dislike fanta"
In truth "kill all who eat hamburgers and burn fanta" ?
I understand that EE is not AA and they could both learn from each other BUT while AA can learn from EE , EE also CAN learn from AA.
Currently a lot of units are yes, clones of each other Hammer-> thud, Rocko-> storm they are the common units
BUT there are also units ONLY for the other side that LOOK like they do the same thing, but they infact do something else
banshee(raider) -> bladewing (stunner)
Dominators( siege unit) -> Snipers. ( direct damage unit)
krows(flying krogoth) -> blades( flak resistant rapier). There are differences! and its a _GOOD_ thing.
i think i blew a fuse somewhere. . .
Imagine what this will do.
the 2 ever happy units AK and peewee.
Atm the AK is superior to peewee in _Small_amounts IE 3 aks vs 4 peewees the aks will win BUT attacking with 20 peewees against 25 aks peewees will win.
This is partly due to the HP/damage/SPEED of the units. if you standardize this you make core aks obsolete compared to arm peewee. OR you would force caydr to make the AK a straight CLONE of Peewee to balance them out , which is absolutely retarded. about other units: this gives minor advantages if employed well (_use of skills_) In large plain maps if the enemy spams hammers you get rockos which are a bit faster than hammers. then you micro the rockos to be just outside the hammer's range while shooting at them.
IF YOU STANDARDIZE the speeds this will happen automatically without any decent micro skills required. just go near the hammers and set move order away, that's it.
CURRENTLY this needs a lot of attention WHICH BALANCES them.
Metal makers are NEEDED in TA. they are one of the _Greatest_ ideas of the whole game, whilst you need to expand to get metal from extractors and from reclaimable rocks etc. You can convert one of your resources to another. NO OTHER STRATEGY GAME USES THIS!( i mean being able to only convert A-> B but not b->A)
"but the other player can just porch in and get nukes with his incredible met maker spam"
NO NO NO NO NO
The metal makers cost 100 energy PER SECOND to give 1 metal . it takes 5 CONSTRUCTION BOTS to build solars continuously to KEEP IN PAR with 1 con building met makers continuously.
Whereas you need ONLY 1 con to get metal extractors, with sufficient resources it takes around 5 second to build a unit capable of getting around ~1-2 metal per second while you need 5 solars for 1 metal maker (nearly 600 METAL) for JUST 1 metal maker!
The whole idea is that you can keep ESCALATING the battle continuously after the mex spots in the map run out.
Imagine a battle with 2 equally skilled players. Both start with kbots, raiding some at start, after that going to tier2 , getting some heavy stuff. at this point THE GROWING STOPS. 0 metal boost would be possible without metal makers. The battle would reach the PEAK.
If you instead keep the metal makers. both of them do the same things , after the metal spots run out they will start to grow their resources with the use of the metal makers MAKING THE BATTLES EVEN MORE BIG!.
why in the earth would you want to remove one of the greatest ideas out of this game
its like cutting mexes and energy facilities out and getting peons and crystal veins and vespene gas to maps we have.enough of this useless bull**** about units being overpowered and needing nerf or boost compared to others.
WHAT THE ENEMY BUILDS YOU CAN BUILD TOO!
"eek the enemy uses akspam its OP , OP i tell you! it needs NERF!"
What stops you from building them?
"but im arm !!!"
Go cry emo kid, get LLTS and hammers.
DO NOT make this a "Starcraft:total annihilation"
The whole idea is that you have many possibilities, many ideas, many tactics to use!
whereas other games go "build mcv, build barracks, rush infantry A out, rush infantry B out until enemy is dead"
NO this is NOT a strategy game. its called repeat and repeat till you drop.
TA is strategy game.
the enemy rushes with aks? get llts
The enemy gets llts? get rockos
The enemy gets rockos? get bladewings
The enemy gets bladewings? get defenders or fighters
ETC ETC ETC the ideas and counters are nigh unlimited, whereas people say
"unit B and building C are useless"
in truth they mean " i haven't used unit B and unit C so they need to die"
_In real world_
"i dont eat hamburgers, i dislike fanta"
In truth "kill all who eat hamburgers and burn fanta" ?
I understand that EE is not AA and they could both learn from each other BUT while AA can learn from EE , EE also CAN learn from AA.
Currently a lot of units are yes, clones of each other Hammer-> thud, Rocko-> storm they are the common units
BUT there are also units ONLY for the other side that LOOK like they do the same thing, but they infact do something else
banshee(raider) -> bladewing (stunner)
Dominators( siege unit) -> Snipers. ( direct damage unit)
krows(flying krogoth) -> blades( flak resistant rapier). There are differences! and its a _GOOD_ thing.
i think i blew a fuse somewhere. . .
No shit sleksa?i think i blew a fuse somewhere. . .
Well, i totaly agree on you on the standerised speed thing, but one i have to correct you on the metal makers.
Forboding says that all energy sturcture are balanced after the metalmakers, since if energy would be high and cheap, many metal makers could be built to expoilt the high effect to low price of energy makers to make metal. Without metal makers, E would only be usefull as a secondary resource for building and using Units and buildings, a support Resource. This would make balancing of Energy structures esayer, since then you can make rediulus "OP" energy stuctures without a huge effect on the game except having a constant E income.
He's not agsint an ever escalating war, infact he suggest we add level 1 metal generators and balance the level 2 ones better.
But i'm pretty sure that balancing with Metal makers is hard, but not impossibole.
BTW forboding, you talked a phew pages about "bandaid solutions" and "the real problems"... what are the real problems then? Where's the glaring flaw in AA?
L2 Metal Generators are only useful when you have capped all your mexes with mohomexes or are too lazy to do so whilst microing your units
T2 Metal Makers are only useful to stop the insane excess you get from mohogeos/fusions (which you need for nukes, heavy unit production, berthas, defenses etc)
W00T! Go sleksa! get that EE fanboy out of our thread >;>
T2 Metal Makers are only useful to stop the insane excess you get from mohogeos/fusions (which you need for nukes, heavy unit production, berthas, defenses etc)
W00T! Go sleksa! get that EE fanboy out of our thread >;>
Yes, metal makers are a core feature of TA. They're part of what makes it so challenging (and why I suck so bad). A big part of success in TA is balancing building up your defenses and troops with laying out energy sources and metal-makers internally to power your economy. External expansion is simple, but competative. Internal expansion is the logistical challenge (and my ineptness at it is why I still suck after many hours of play). Really, it's the internal thing that determines how soon you can hit L2, which is really thing thing that decides the game in many cases.ginekolog wrote:what are u arguing about ffs? AA needs simple, small tuning. For big changes like unified speed go play or make other mods.
And MM's are one of best feature in this game. In all other RTSs' u know u will win when u have more than 60% of map. In TA u can get nasty surprise when u have map but enemy got lvl2 eco and units and u loose. :)
AA is best mod around and leave it on top plz
