Absolute Annihilation 1.5

[Caydr]

Units moving the same speed... I have to disagree. If units could be made to stay in formation with slower units, this would be perfect, but if they were all the same speed (with exceptions you mentioned) I think it'd be too bland. A Can and a Fido moving at the same speed? Ehhh... While I see your point (and I've implemented something like this for boat movement speeds), I don't think it'd work for ground units. There are too many units whose main advantage(s) lie with their relative speed.

As you know, I agree with you on the metal maker point, but as I am sticking to the TA design as closely as I can, I am obligated to keep them in.

Caydr ground attacking submarines is most definitly posible. EE has one.

http://imagesocket.com/view/screen000c19.jpg

Am I mistaken in thinking that this "submarine" can be attacked by all the same things that can attack actual ships?

[Andreask]

EE´s nuclear missile sub is submerged when idle, and sufaces when ordered to fire.

It fires nuke rockets from a qued ammunition stock, which uses a lot of M and E to produce each shot.

[Egarwaen]

You are misunderstanding me. I in now way am thinking that AA/TA should be EE, not even close.

And yet many of the changes you suggest amount to "make it more like EE".

How about first of all, all the basic lv1 units being set to the same speed. This would alleviate some annoyances. Obviously the ak and peewee would remain faster, but how about lower damage and much greater LOS For them, they are scouts after all, but they don't do their job as well as they should.

Peewees/AKs are not scouts, they're basic infantry. Light, mobile, direct-fire units. They're useful as scouts, but that's not all they do.

Rocket kbots and plasma kbots are already pretty much the same speed. (1.54 VS 1.5) AA KBots are faster (1.6-some) Making them exactly the same speed seems reasonable.

The warrior as it is right now is rather useless. If it is truly to be a lv 1.5 unit built by the lv1 factory, give it moderately greater health (say 600-800 for example), slightly slower speed than the main lv1 units and about twice the damage dealing capability with an appropriate cost increase/deduction.

The Warrior is simply bizarre. It needs to decide whether it wants to be a slow-moving assault unit or some kind of anti-swarm solution. Right now, it seems to be both, and has an absurd cost and buildtime because of it.

Metal makers, bad idea and a band aid in and of itself. I suggest taking them out and making energy buildings cheaper, also gives the ability to maybe raise the mex multiplier to something a bit higher, so that metal on low metal maps isn't really an issue.

Why? I've never seen a coherent explanation for why MMs are bad. It just seems to be taken for granted by the EE people. They're absurdly inefficient, and are, at best, a suppliment to a proper extractor-oriented economy rather than a replacement for it. Anyone that relies on Metal Makers or MMMs for their metal will die unless their opponent leaves them alone and lets them porc like mad.

And think about what you're saying WRT low metal maps for a second. These maps are low metal because the designers wanted them to be low metal. Changing the mexes to make these maps give more metal is counterproductive. What are the likely effects of your proposed change on mid-to-high-metal maps?

Guardians/punishers, way too expensive and way too effective. Hell they are a lv1 structure that is effective to a decent if not excessive degree vs lv2 units. I don't think that that is a good idea. I would reason for a decently faster projectile at low trajectory with a high impulse on high trajectory.

Worth considering, at least, though I've never seen them as incredibly effective against most L2 units. I'll have to give that a try. In the few high-level replays I've watched, they don't really seem to come out.

Hlt's, probably ok, but I think the range should be reduced. It's killing power at it;s max range is a bit much, possibly shorter range, higher damage?

Check the 1.5 HLTs.

Lv2 is a mess. Everything moves at a different speed and serves a marginally useful purpose all things considered. Part of this is to blame on the original game, which had some things that "it was a good idea at the time!".

Yes, everything does move at a different speed. AA is not EE. Most units with similar roles have similar speeds, and most units have appropriate speeds for their roles.

There are very few units I'd call "marginally useful". Mavericks, for the same reasons as Warriors. Crawling Bombs (regular, not cloakable). Some of the L2 vehicle artillery seems redundant. Some units are very map-dependent (Dominators, amphibious units, Recluses), but that's okay.

Speeds for lv2 regulars standardized as a bit slower than lv1's but not cumbersomely slow.

AA is not EE. Standardized speeds are not necessary for balance.

I would suggest that Cans and morties be front line assualt forces, and dominators be used for arty purposes as backline units. Morties can fire over cans and cans are there to soak up the damage/chump blockers, and Elevating the sumo(and fatboy) to lv 2.5 status.

Isn't this basically how Core KBots play now?

[Forboding Angel]

IMO AA doesn't need drastic makeovers.... it only needs finetuning of somethings...

and Metal Makers have always been a core feature of TA

Nope, metal makers were introduced with core contingency. It it was a core feature I would assume that they would be shipped with the game.

[Neddie]

Well, I'll weigh in on some of these radical but not entirely horrid ideas now... and some later.

SPEEDS
First, I think stardardizing L1 speeds can be both good, and possibly bad for AA. Standardized speeds leads to groups you hardly need to micro... hence E&E's massed L1 URC mechs walking in line, where players can just abandon them and move to another sector of the game. That might be faster, but I think people should actually have to pay attention to individual troops. As a player, I'm usually moving units one at a time (It's my average unit selection score, or whatever).

Perhaps we should have some speed classes within each level. It's stupid to have each run at a unique, different speed, but also overly simple to have them run at the same speed. If we make say three speed classes for L1, three for L2 and three for L3, we can use speed as a balancing mechanism and avoid both over simplification and an excess of detail.

METAL MAKERS
What do Metal Makers do, precisely? They exchange absurd amounts of Energy for small amounts of Metal, in an explosive factory. I don't see anything wrong with this, in general, as it makes for longer more interesting games and isn't inherently unbalanced... though the fact that water Metal Makers make the same Metal for less Energy is a small but significant point of imbalance.

Most importantly, Metal Makers reduce the need for metal patches - and, indeed, for blind expansion. E&E is pretty much centered on headlong expansion, so it makes perfect sense (which I have never contended) for them to not use Metal Makers. However, Metal Makers in AA allow for more diverse gameplay, and still leave one at an economic disadvantage. So... I see no issue with them. They aren't a bandaid, but a risky economic option that widens gameplay choices and allows for AA to be played on maps essentially lacking in metal.

[NOiZE]

IMO AA doesn't need drastic makeovers.... it only needs finetuning of somethings...

and Metal Makers have always been a core feature of TA

Nope, metal makers were introduced with core contingency. It it was a core feature I would assume that they would be shipped with the game.

Lies!

Metal Makers were in from the first version of TA!!

[Egarwaen]

IIRC, the Core Contingency introduced Moho Metal Makers. Which are just slightly more efficient MMs that eat up almost the entire output of a fusion reactor.

[NOiZE]

IIRC, the Core Contingency introduced Moho Metal Makers. Which are just slightly more efficient MMs that eat up almost the entire output of a fusion reactor.

exactly!

[Forboding Angel]

AA is not EE. Standardized speeds are not necessary for balance.

You say this, yet AA players complain that units don't walk at the same speeds, so I say standardize the speeds, and you replay with "You're trying to make it just like EE!".

Pick one or the other.

Egar, you are using this "Making it like EE" comment because I had said the reverse to you several times.

Now lets make this abundantly clear. I am in no way triny to get AA to be like EE. AA is it's own game, HOWEVER, there are other games with ideas that AA could benefit from, one of those games is EE.

Does it really make sense for the main battle units to be moving at different speeds? What is wrong with making the go the same speed? You kill a bit of micro there that Everyone gets a little bit annoyed with and make the battles a bit more epic.

@NOiZE, if you're right I apologize. I have regular ta pre:CC installed at home, I'll take a look.

[Forboding Angel]

Well, I'll weigh in on some of these radical but not entirely horrid ideas now... and some later.

SPEEDS
First, I think stardardizing L1 speeds can be both good, and possibly bad for AA. Standardized speeds leads to groups you hardly need to micro... hence E&E's massed L1 URC mechs walking in line, where players can just abandon them and move to another sector of the game. That might be faster, but I think people should actually have to pay attention to individual troops. As a player, I'm usually moving units one at a time (It's my average unit selection score, or whatever).

Perhaps we should have some speed classes within each level. It's stupid to have each run at a unique, different speed, but also overly simple to have them run at the same speed. If we make say three speed classes for L1, three for L2 and three for L3, we can use speed as a balancing mechanism and avoid both over simplification and an excess of detail.

METAL MAKERS
What do Metal Makers do, precisely? They exchange absurd amounts of Energy for small amounts of Metal, in an explosive factory. I don't see anything wrong with this, in general, as it makes for longer more interesting games and isn't inherently unbalanced... though the fact that water Metal Makers make the same Metal for less Energy is a small but significant point of imbalance.

Most importantly, Metal Makers reduce the need for metal patches - and, indeed, for blind expansion. E&E is pretty much centered on headlong expansion, so it makes perfect sense (which I have never contended) for them to not use Metal Makers. However, Metal Makers in AA allow for more diverse gameplay, and still leave one at an economic disadvantage. So... I see no issue with them. They aren't a bandaid, but a risky economic option that widens gameplay choices and allows for AA to be played on maps essentially lacking in metal.

Great post btw. I think replacing metal makers with metal generators would be a bit better in terms of the game and freeing up energy constrains/cost for energy buildings.

Edit: At the very least this discussion may poke some good ideas here and there. That was the original intent as I originally stated.

Edit2: @egar

"Isn't this basically how Core KBots play now?"
Sort of, except the can cannot really be considered a frontline unit because of how slow it is, and neither can the morty because of it's low health. I was thinking range decrease for the morty higher damage and higher health.

[Neddie]

I've personally never complained about the divergent speeds. it's one reason why I love an early AA game... if I pay attention to the composition of a group and micro each one, it actually pays off. Besides, when you look at the number of units and the sustained diversity, a staggered middle ground like I proposed looks logically quite advantageous. Different tiers still require some attention, but the lesser consolidation does simplfy the game.

I don't have a problem with an epic battle now- though that might just be me.

[NOiZE]

I think replacing metal makers with metal generators would be a bit better in terms of the game and freeing up energy constrains/cost for energy buildings.

TBH i don't see the problem with the cost of energy buildings, nor with anything energy related tbh. It's all fine! Why break a working formule?

[Forboding Angel]

I've personally never complained about the divergent speeds. it's one reason why I love an early AA game... if I pay attention to the composition of a group and micro each one, it actually pays off. Besides, when you look at the number of units and the sustained diversity, a staggered middle ground like I proposed looks logically quite advantageous. Different tiers still require some attention, but the lesser consolidation does simplfy the game.

I don't have a problem with an epic battle now- though that might just be me.

I agree. I like the tiered idaes you gave, thought that was a really neat idea.

"TBH i don't see the problem with the cost of energy buildings, nor with anything energy related tbh. It's all fine! Why break a working formule?"

In a sense it's fine, but replacing metal makers with generators would cause the price tag of particular units and energy structures to go down. The formula that works doesn't work as well as it could. BTW NOiZE, I am only discussing here and you last post seemed a bit hostile at the end... THere isn't any need for that. THis is only a thinktank session.

[Egarwaen]

"Isn't this basically how Core KBots play now?"
Sort of, except the can cannot really be considered a frontline unit because of how slow it is, and neither can the morty because of it's low health. I was thinking range decrease for the morty higher damage and higher health.

But the Morty doesn't really need health if the Cans are providing a 'wall' for them, does it?. The Can's a bit slower than the Zeus (1.133 VS 1.38 ) but is a bit more expensive and has about three times the HP. They seem to work well enough as assault units?

[Forboding Angel]

"Isn't this basically how Core KBots play now?"
Sort of, except the can cannot really be considered a frontline unit because of how slow it is, and neither can the morty because of it's low health. I was thinking range decrease for the morty higher damage and higher health.

But the Morty doesn't really need health if the Cans are providing a 'wall' for them, does it?. The Can's a bit slower than the Zeus (1.133 VS 1.38) but is a bit more expensive and has about three times the HP.

Oh yes definately... I was going on the assumption that the cans would get a speed boots and a bit of a health reduction.

Edit: HAHAHAA, speed boots lol that's awesome lol

[Kixxe]

Bah, what's wrong with a litthe micro?

And forboding, try to give an example. How the HELL can you standerise speeds for oh say, The core k-bots? Units like the sumo have strengs and weaknesses in just speed and turnrate. Otherwise the sumos awesome, but's it's flawed by it's inabilty to run away and get range on those pesky close range units.

[Forboding Angel]

Bah, what's wrong with a litthe micro?

And forboding, try to give an example. How the HELL can you standerise speeds for oh say, The core k-bots? Units like the sumo have strengs and weaknesses in just speed and turnrate. Otherwise the sumos awesome, but's it's flawed by it's inabilty to run away and get range on those pesky close range units.

Yet another good point. I was going on the assumption that the sumo would be considered a 2.5 lv unit. Also consider neddie's idea of 3 tiers of speeds per level. I think this idea is more realistic in terms of the way that aa plays.

[Min3mat]

:\
in AA
Metal makers are inefficient and 'splode good. they are, as it has been said a LOT! a SUPPLEMENT to a economy, a extra special little thing well worth that micro time, its a interesting and cool function.

Unit speeds, are varied and you have to micro your units to get good efficiency out of them...how is this a bad thing O_o

There is none of this T1.5 T2.5 crap. There are a number of roles at the levels, eg. Heavy Assault units for CORE at T2 and A majority of support kbots for ARM at T2

OK admittedly Warriors are pretty useless, but tbh, with the 'raider damage tag removed' i see no point in them! (i read this in one of Caydr's posts, he might have meant just for the exploiter or something and i have NOT checked this out ingame)

Morties are Cheap and spammable, great in support

[espylaub]

Standardizing speeds is an awful idea. Speed is one of the factors that defines the role of a unit, like range, los, weapons, armor etc. It is what balances out massive units against small units. It makes flanking slow armies viable, interceptions, raids, all sorts of fundamental stuff. Making all units the same speed is, sorry, completely insane. It defies the whole point of the game.

If all you want is an army of different units to arrive somewhere at the same time, have the fast ones guard the slow ones. Or micro.

[What a stupid Email name]

AA and xta are better with custom speeds per unit, thas one of the things in EE i hate seeing the most, unless you build scouts which completey suck in E&E. Although i do admit i dont have to micro manage forces moving in.