Some thoughts why spring isnt feeling as alive as TA
Moderator: Moderators
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Deathblane
- Posts: 505
- Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 01:22
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Single player campaigns are only worth it if it is very easy to make. In terms of making a mod, I know from SWS that time is at an absolute premium, and with a million things to attend too, you really can't afford to be mucking around with a complicated single player mode.
If it is very easy to make, then yes, it would certainly be a good way for players to learn how to play.
What's more, we could delegate the task to someone who can't really mod, but has an interest in helping out (we have oh so many of those), which is another advantage.
If it is very easy to make, then yes, it would certainly be a good way for players to learn how to play.
What's more, we could delegate the task to someone who can't really mod, but has an interest in helping out (we have oh so many of those), which is another advantage.
Woo! Go text monkeys!Warlord Zsinj wrote:someone who can't really mod, but has an interest in helping out (we have oh so many of those)
And I'm not sure I see what you're saying IM - Spring seems pretty 'alive' and growing to me. The player base is getting larger every day (or at least it seems that way..), there's an active modding, mapping and content-producing community, and the engine itself is ever improving.
I think absolute basic (semi-useless missions) could be done pretty trivially. You need a few features. First, a way to launch a string of single-player missions, and save your progress (just which level you're on) - that could even be an external app.Warlord Zsinj wrote:Single player campaigns are only worth it if it is very easy to make. In terms of making a mod, I know from SWS that time is at an absolute premium, and with a million things to attend too, you really can't afford to be mucking around with a complicated single player mode.
If it is very easy to make, then yes, it would certainly be a good way for players to learn how to play.
What's more, we could delegate the task to someone who can't really mod, but has an interest in helping out (we have oh so many of those), which is another advantage.
Second, a way to show pre-mission briefings. That could be plain text, even. This can include some helpful pointers on playing Spring.
Then, each mission is simply a mod, a map, and a set of spawn locations/times. Just assume player 1 is the human player and all other factions are AIs aligned against him. Finally (this is the complicated part) a way to define the success/failure conditions of the mission (destruction of all of X for succes, loss of any of Y for failure). One could make one mod per mission and simply alter the sidedata of each faction to gradually introduce the player to the full build-list over the course of the missions.
You couldn't do a complicated "StarCraft" style mission, but you could do a basic game to gradually introduce the player to the gameplay. Provide a few tips with each mission, get the players started off with each group of units, etc. To keep the AI's options limited, just don't give them any construction units - give them fully built bases with factories, spawning stuff in over time to give the player time to prepare. It worked for Dune II.
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PenguinMaster
- Posts: 25
- Joined: 04 Jun 2006, 04:18
hmm... In order to create a feel like the original TA, we have to add something... More multiplayer functionability. If we can add a new layer of interaction then we may be able to catch a few rays of light here. Im thinking something of game scripts, so like a multiplayer campaign. Using something like the spawn that was used for random enemies, we could set up preset scenarios and if we are lucky, get a scenario editor to glorify this. basicly
1. load a map
2. place the preset objects that are compiled into a script
3. set all the actions and settings( like making this do this if this happens and other junk, like triggers in AOE2 or starcraft.)
4. have it compile it all into a folder, which you make into a SD7 or something and put in a "scenarios folder".
I know this is alot to ask. I am personally willing to make the compiling program, that takes all of your data and makes it readable by spring, but I do not possess the knowledge to open a 3d map(otherwise i would do the whole thing, I've done stuff like this but for 2d games)
If someone else could set up the basic placing and stuff, I could make the program that you run the data you make in the editor through, that outputs your scenario files.( basicly it would just have to work with temp files that would be made with the locations of the units, and everything done with triggers, so it would compress the trigger data and make it readable.)
Ta spring would simply read the trigger data and when a condition was fufilled an action would take place, like
if any p1 unit>killed
then
killer gains 1 killed_unit_type
which would be run in the background by my program and using cheatcodes or anything availible to it, it would do the action. so it would .team <whatever> and .give 1 <whatever>
This would require alot of work, or alot of temp files being created to fuel info into the program, then it would need some way to respond.
I talked a big game, but I can pitch in alot to make this a reality. It would still take alot of work though. the devs may have to decide if they want to go through with this or make a much more professional way, but have to do it on their own.( I can only make an external program. I dont code spring's language, sadly. if I did this would probably already be a reality, a result of too much time on my hands)
Sorry for the huge rant. I just really hope I can help make this a reality.
Think of the possibiltys! huge multiplayer missions, and cool game modes made posible like king of the hill and capture the flag(already possible by clever modding)
Im afraid to push submit wondering if it might ruin my reputation in some weird way...
screw my reputation.*click*[/u]
1. load a map
2. place the preset objects that are compiled into a script
3. set all the actions and settings( like making this do this if this happens and other junk, like triggers in AOE2 or starcraft.)
4. have it compile it all into a folder, which you make into a SD7 or something and put in a "scenarios folder".
I know this is alot to ask. I am personally willing to make the compiling program, that takes all of your data and makes it readable by spring, but I do not possess the knowledge to open a 3d map(otherwise i would do the whole thing, I've done stuff like this but for 2d games)
If someone else could set up the basic placing and stuff, I could make the program that you run the data you make in the editor through, that outputs your scenario files.( basicly it would just have to work with temp files that would be made with the locations of the units, and everything done with triggers, so it would compress the trigger data and make it readable.)
Ta spring would simply read the trigger data and when a condition was fufilled an action would take place, like
if any p1 unit>killed
then
killer gains 1 killed_unit_type
which would be run in the background by my program and using cheatcodes or anything availible to it, it would do the action. so it would .team <whatever> and .give 1 <whatever>
This would require alot of work, or alot of temp files being created to fuel info into the program, then it would need some way to respond.
I talked a big game, but I can pitch in alot to make this a reality. It would still take alot of work though. the devs may have to decide if they want to go through with this or make a much more professional way, but have to do it on their own.( I can only make an external program. I dont code spring's language, sadly. if I did this would probably already be a reality, a result of too much time on my hands)
Sorry for the huge rant. I just really hope I can help make this a reality.
Think of the possibiltys! huge multiplayer missions, and cool game modes made posible like king of the hill and capture the flag(already possible by clever modding)
Im afraid to push submit wondering if it might ruin my reputation in some weird way...
screw my reputation.*click*[/u]
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DakarMorad
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 21 Jun 2006, 01:56
It seems the main problem is that the mods have too steep a learning curve, making it difficult to enter. Single player missions that introduced the units would definitely work here.
Another possibility would be to write guides to every unit and their function in a game. I think on TAuniverse somebody wrote this for OTA. Why not write basic guides to XTA and AA?
Another possibility would be to write guides to every unit and their function in a game. I think on TAuniverse somebody wrote this for OTA. Why not write basic guides to XTA and AA?
Because it's already been done ?DakarMorad wrote:Another possibility would be to write guides to every unit and their function in a game. I think on TAuniverse somebody wrote this for OTA. Why not write basic guides to XTA and AA?
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DakarMorad
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 21 Jun 2006, 01:56
And a partial XTA wiki.
These should be a bit more accessable, and a more user-friendly guide wouldn't hurt.
These should be a bit more accessable, and a more user-friendly guide wouldn't hurt.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
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Targ Collective
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16
You assume far too much in that statement. OTA's campaign was hard to make. StarCraft's campaign was hard to make. WarCraft's campaign was hard to make. Dune and Dune II? HARD. I see a pattern here. But having played most of these, I can say the effort was worth it, from the animated pics in SC's briefings to capturing the Imperial Palace and sending out Ferkada against my foes to that first Arm naval mission.Warlord Zsinj wrote:Single player campaigns are only worth it if it is very easy to make.
TA really needs campaign functionality. Give me that and I'll personally create a campaign for each mod with definite themes - in AA, for example, building up from strong unit limits and basic techs through to a first naval mission featuring the Beaver through to mechbattles and beyond. Which would be very, very hard... and more than worth the effort.
So I disagree, Warlord.
You assume far too much in that statement. OTA's campaign was hard to make. StarCraft's campaign was hard to make. WarCraft's campaign was hard to make. Dune and Dune II? HARD. I see a pattern here. But having played most of these, I can say the effort was worth it, from the animated pics in SC's briefings to capturing the Imperial Palace and sending out Ferkada against my foes to that first Arm naval mission.Targ Collective wrote:Warlord Zsinj wrote:Single player campaigns are only worth it if it is very easy to make.
/quote]
Who are you going to pay to get it made then? Your talking about commercial games with big budgets and a development cycle of several years there!
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Targ Collective
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16
True. However, it would be worth it. And yes, I have taken commercial games as examples, yet the 'campaign mode' is an extended tutorial, storyline extender and playability duration expander impossible to equal.
I'm not kidding, either, I'd be spending all my time building scenarios if the functionality were there.
Tobi, I haven't a clue how difficult this would be to implement, but I have got a basic idea of what would be needed to make it work.
Ability to place units for missions.
Ability to create locations on the map.
Basic trigger system.
Map selection screen.
These basic elements, from a user's perspective, are what are needed to make this work, and most of these were seen to work in a basic fashion in the LUA_Missiontest.
So why not have a new Campaign option in the loading screen, which can read all .cmp files (which contains the mission list), load the maplist in a new option screen (with Back at the bottom as default), and then load the scripts from the LUA files?
Only other thing I can think of is a Canbuild list to break the player in to the technology slowly. As I see it the most challenging part would be the LUA language, which has already been seen to function well.
I expect there's probably a lot more to it than that, though...
I'm not kidding, either, I'd be spending all my time building scenarios if the functionality were there.
Tobi, I haven't a clue how difficult this would be to implement, but I have got a basic idea of what would be needed to make it work.
Ability to place units for missions.
Ability to create locations on the map.
Basic trigger system.
Map selection screen.
These basic elements, from a user's perspective, are what are needed to make this work, and most of these were seen to work in a basic fashion in the LUA_Missiontest.
So why not have a new Campaign option in the loading screen, which can read all .cmp files (which contains the mission list), load the maplist in a new option screen (with Back at the bottom as default), and then load the scripts from the LUA files?
Only other thing I can think of is a Canbuild list to break the player in to the technology slowly. As I see it the most challenging part would be the LUA language, which has already been seen to function well.
I expect there's probably a lot more to it than that, though...
Hmm, I have to agree with the ota != spring.
To me, an OTA game progresses faster than in spring. Here are my thoughts.
When I first played spring, I hated it. I immediately went back on the zone to play some ota.
Like I said before, ota's res system opted for more faster starts. +500 metal = +500 metal a second. In spring, who knows what it means, but it sure isn't +500 metal a second, more like 300 or something.
On that same note, I love how in OTA it always shows what your using. Even if you make +50 and use 100, it always shows you want your using. It made it easy to judge how well you are doing. In spring you can't tell. Sure, some idiot may say +300 metal is t3h l33t ownz0rs. STFU! +300 is nice, if your using like 500. But if your making 300 and using 1200, thats very bad. You can't really tell in Spring unless you notice all ur cons just stalling. Try noticing that when your deep into battle trying to micro the hell outta your units. Usually you notice too late by the fact that your squads are getting thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner....
The physics was changed a LOT in spring. You can't really compare the two. Hell, planes were the big change. It took how long to finaly get planes back on the map as useful? (brawler/rapier don't count).
Other small things that make a big difference:
radar targetting is handled by spring. Some people (def the legends of the ota world) enjoyed the uber micro. Hell I loved it. Its what separated the experts from the noobs - the ability to micro, and micro very well and on the fly.
Force Fire: If a unit is on Fire At Will, the unit will ignore any force fire commands when enemy units are in attack range. It rather do its own thing than to listen to the boss. Only way to fix is to put Hold Fire, Stop, then force fire. I submitted this bug long time ago (at least once) but nobody listens....
Force Fire 2: With spring handling radar targetting and auto fire, this makes force firing on things you know is there...almost impossible. If I know something is there, and my units are in range, I want to force fire the ground where it is at. You can't do that in spring w/o a targeting facility. The dot bounces way too much and you'll miss. Only thing you can do is over shoot it and hope it hits, but then your a lot closer and risk getting hit by their units. To me, I hate this.
Ghosted Buildings: Great idea, but along with the above 2 posts, it sucks. I tried turning this off and it still wont. I rather just mark the ground where the unit I want to kill is at, then force fire to kill it. No dealing with the radar dots. I submitted this bug too.....months ago (and pretty much after every version came out).
Multiple Commands to a unit: In ota, if I am microing a flash, and I click move a lot, my unit won't slow down. It keeps going and changes direction just a little bit. In spring, if you mash the move command a lot, the unit slows down. Why? I dunno. This is known issue too.
Anyway, if Spring was released with the ota style balance, there would have been a greater player base than there is now. Most of the hardcore ota'ers (like myself) hated mods. It was just so different playing spring, most gave up within a week.
Did Spring implement things for the better? absolutely. OTA is dead, get over it. Its still fun to play cuz it was mostly bug free. You can't compare a freely distributed game to one where the developers were making moolah. They can afford to put in huge amount of hours into it, unlike the people who work on spring for free.
I'm happy with spring. It did take me about a month to get used ot everything and attempt to like it. I'm glad Caydr came out with AA cuz XTA is not something I like. I rather play Starcrap.
Those are my thoughts. For those of you who want to know my background, I played OTA when it first came out. I then played on the zone for nearly 5 years, but at least over 4. I enjoy reviewing maps, gameplay, and whatnot. I also enjoy beta testing and giving my thoughts. I have helped Forboding and Caydr a few times in the balance testing of maps and mods. Fun stuff.
To me, an OTA game progresses faster than in spring. Here are my thoughts.
When I first played spring, I hated it. I immediately went back on the zone to play some ota.
Like I said before, ota's res system opted for more faster starts. +500 metal = +500 metal a second. In spring, who knows what it means, but it sure isn't +500 metal a second, more like 300 or something.
On that same note, I love how in OTA it always shows what your using. Even if you make +50 and use 100, it always shows you want your using. It made it easy to judge how well you are doing. In spring you can't tell. Sure, some idiot may say +300 metal is t3h l33t ownz0rs. STFU! +300 is nice, if your using like 500. But if your making 300 and using 1200, thats very bad. You can't really tell in Spring unless you notice all ur cons just stalling. Try noticing that when your deep into battle trying to micro the hell outta your units. Usually you notice too late by the fact that your squads are getting thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner....
The physics was changed a LOT in spring. You can't really compare the two. Hell, planes were the big change. It took how long to finaly get planes back on the map as useful? (brawler/rapier don't count).
Other small things that make a big difference:
radar targetting is handled by spring. Some people (def the legends of the ota world) enjoyed the uber micro. Hell I loved it. Its what separated the experts from the noobs - the ability to micro, and micro very well and on the fly.
Force Fire: If a unit is on Fire At Will, the unit will ignore any force fire commands when enemy units are in attack range. It rather do its own thing than to listen to the boss. Only way to fix is to put Hold Fire, Stop, then force fire. I submitted this bug long time ago (at least once) but nobody listens....
Force Fire 2: With spring handling radar targetting and auto fire, this makes force firing on things you know is there...almost impossible. If I know something is there, and my units are in range, I want to force fire the ground where it is at. You can't do that in spring w/o a targeting facility. The dot bounces way too much and you'll miss. Only thing you can do is over shoot it and hope it hits, but then your a lot closer and risk getting hit by their units. To me, I hate this.
Ghosted Buildings: Great idea, but along with the above 2 posts, it sucks. I tried turning this off and it still wont. I rather just mark the ground where the unit I want to kill is at, then force fire to kill it. No dealing with the radar dots. I submitted this bug too.....months ago (and pretty much after every version came out).
Multiple Commands to a unit: In ota, if I am microing a flash, and I click move a lot, my unit won't slow down. It keeps going and changes direction just a little bit. In spring, if you mash the move command a lot, the unit slows down. Why? I dunno. This is known issue too.
Anyway, if Spring was released with the ota style balance, there would have been a greater player base than there is now. Most of the hardcore ota'ers (like myself) hated mods. It was just so different playing spring, most gave up within a week.
Did Spring implement things for the better? absolutely. OTA is dead, get over it. Its still fun to play cuz it was mostly bug free. You can't compare a freely distributed game to one where the developers were making moolah. They can afford to put in huge amount of hours into it, unlike the people who work on spring for free.
I'm happy with spring. It did take me about a month to get used ot everything and attempt to like it. I'm glad Caydr came out with AA cuz XTA is not something I like. I rather play Starcrap.
Those are my thoughts. For those of you who want to know my background, I played OTA when it first came out. I then played on the zone for nearly 5 years, but at least over 4. I enjoy reviewing maps, gameplay, and whatnot. I also enjoy beta testing and giving my thoughts. I have helped Forboding and Caydr a few times in the balance testing of maps and mods. Fun stuff.
