Expand and Exterminate version 0.163 Released

krogothe · Post by **krogothe** » 07 Jun 2006, 17:52

thats a bit better. Ive done some research on gameplay mechanics before, and even considering a flat terrain and no counters, many stats are linked in complex ways. range and speed are related, not only in being invesely proportional for balance, but also if a unit is fast and has a range of 50, making that range 100 or 25 will not make much difference.
Another example would be damage per hit. If a unit fires 10x a second for 10 dmg each hit, making it fire 2x a second for 50 damage wont change much at all, while a unit that fires once every 2 seconds for 200 being changed to une that fires once every 10 seconds for 1000 damage makes it a LOT more effective. Lastly, a radar jammer becomes more than 4x better if you double its range. Thats 4x area PLUS being harder to find and destroy, plus being able to stay further away from the enemy, which are based on all other unit's LOS and ranges.
In the end its really hard to get balance via formulas even if they are not in absolute values, only playtesting by experienced and creative players will provide that.

Andreask · Post by **Andreask** » 07 Jun 2006, 18:09

Well, the EE open beta lacks players and games, so we gain little experience.
Of coures glaring issues are found fast, like the mini-gun turret, the missile bots, the new hovers, but the more subtle ones are easily ignored with only one game every odd evening.

Thats why i try the theoretical approach.

As for the range to speed balance, what i basically thought of wasnt only a 100 to 50 relation, thats only the basis. Of course relatives have more impact when the absolutes are greater.

I thought of making the fastest hover basically a melee unit, compared to the other tanks. Thats a huge difference, when you think of the great ranges that all EE units have right now.

To enable that, you need to think of all the relations i afore mentioned, econ wise too.

Its not that this isnt done, but i fear that rare gameplay tests shift the attention too much towards singular phenomenons, which only create new ones if they are adressed.

Its good to sit back and watch from time to time, especially if there is no action going on.

Decimator · Post by **Decimator** » 07 Jun 2006, 18:49

One possibility is to make the NI expand slower, so they have fewer units, then give them a fast repair unit, perhaps their ground radar unit could be used for this. Hence, they would be able to hit, pull back, then hit again faster than the other factions. Alternately, their cons could build repair stations, essentially nanotowers for a fallback point. This would also give the other factions the ability to attack their staging area instead of being frustrated that they can't kill off the enemy force.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 07 Jun 2006, 19:10

Decimator wrote:One possibility is to make the NI expand slower, so they have fewer units, then give them a fast repair unit, perhaps their ground radar unit could be used for this. Hence, they would be able to hit, pull back, then hit again faster than the other factions. Alternately, their cons could build repair stations, essentially nanotowers for a fallback point. This would also give the other factions the ability to attack their staging area instead of being frustrated that they can't kill off the enemy force.

Well the point behind NI is that they expand quickly, however atm it's a bit too quickly

NI's mexes have nanolathes, or at least at some point they will.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 07 Jun 2006, 19:33

NI simply needs to expand slower... they really lack any staying power as it is, also I need to nerf the lightning dmg a bit as they tend to KO stuff to quickly.. however other than that they are mostly fine.. its just that atm they can easily get overwhelming numbers far to quickly for the other sides to respond.. however if this is reduced down then it becomes less of a problem...

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 07 Jun 2006, 22:51

Okay, Seeing as you sent me a PM:

Cut unit build times and costs by half,
Reduce Moho costs by 2/3,
Moho energy to run by 4/5,
Turret rebalences due to new costs.

Thats what I was going to do.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 07 Jun 2006, 22:52

Why?

if you think that will speed up the game your wrong.. your making more resources available sooner as well as making it possible to build bases faster.. this means it will be harder to kill someone because they can rebuild that much faster...

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 07 Jun 2006, 23:01

Actaully, its because it takes absolutely ages to amas any reasonably fighting force while building defences and securing land you have. It is almost impossible in the present state to:
a) Defend your expansions. Resulting in the dreaded "Metal cycle of dewm"
b) The first person to build any number of tanks while avoiding doing any defence wins
c) Defeat someone who has more land than you.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 07 Jun 2006, 23:09

I have not seen any of these problems.. except maybe the last one, but then that makes sense to me..

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 07 Jun 2006, 23:17

Drone_Fragger wrote:Actaully, its because it takes absolutely ages to amas any reasonably fighting force while building defences and securing land you have. It is almost impossible in the present state to.

Wait for .158. you will be pleasantly suprised.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 07 Jun 2006, 23:21

Drone_Fragger wrote: a) Defend your expansions. Resulting in the dreaded "Metal cycle of dewm"

What the hell is that... the very sentence below you already state that will not work!?!

Drone_Fragger wrote: b) The first person to build any number of tanks while avoiding doing any defence wins

So, why not just make a mod with all flash tanks? Also, this counters what you said above

Drone_Fragger wrote: c) Defeat someone who has more land than you.

Or the person with more land then you will crush you anyway because he will be out producing you and you will have less shit for him to kill. If someone has already taken most of the map you have lost.

You are not fixing shit.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 07 Jun 2006, 23:25

Drone_Fragger wrote:a) Defend your expansions. Resulting in the dreaded "Metal cycle of dewm"

Use a mobile force then; scouts can detect incoming attacks, letting you position your units in a line.

Drone_Fragger wrote:b) The first person to build any number of tanks while avoiding doing any defence wins

If they have no static defences you can split your forces into two groups so they will probably go after one, letting you wreck their base...

Drone_Fragger wrote:c) Defeat someone who has more land than you.

Reclaim, flank, use air if they have no AA etc.

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 07 Jun 2006, 23:57

If you defend, You lose. If you lose a single mex to the enemy, you lose. If you don't make the first move, you lose. A game where the winner is defined by who steals the other players mex first, in my opinion, isn't a very good game.

And don't say "OH YES, YOU SHOULD COUNTERATTACK, KILL ALL HIS TROOPS AND WIN" Because What are you meant to do that with? You have less metal than him, Equals less units, Means less defence, And lose. The only way its possible to pull it back is to rush tech 2 and guild mohos. Even then, They are so obscenly expensive to build and run, You've already lost.

And Air? How are you meant o afford air when all your expanions keep dying?

Decimator · Post by **Decimator** » 08 Jun 2006, 00:24

Drone, are you playing on 8x8s by chance? That would explain your thinking, because even a 16x16 is a bit small, even for a 2v2. There was a discussion on map size and E&E already, and playing on an 8x8 in E&E is like playing on a 4x4 in AA. It's just too small.

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 08 Jun 2006, 01:30

I've found that an agressive defence often works. You keeping pumping out untis and shleping them to the front and viola, you can blow stuff up. Also I've seen players out flank enemy force's and win the day that way, even though the enemy owned half the map.

Or this one time where an enemy had the ENTIRE map encercled. He had five times the metal extractors and a lode of untis. Why did he lose? Cuase those units coulden't be everywere at once. So his base was wasted behind his back.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 08 Jun 2006, 02:18

Zoombie wrote:Or this one time where an enemy had the ENTIRE map encercled. He had five times the metal extractors and a lode of untis. Why did he lose? Cuase those units coulden't be everywere at once. So his base was wasted behind his back.

That actually happens a lot, which should be a lesson to anyone that it happens to.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 08 Jun 2006, 02:48

Deci, Drone and Zoombie all have good points, though I have to say that Drone takes it a little far.

Would I like to be able to comeback in E&E without being spaz-gressive? Yes. Would I like to be able to play without being aggressive? Not really.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 09 Jun 2006, 08:10

Played a few games of EE tonight.

I am impressed I wondered if it was possible to porc in EE so I tried a few times. No mater what you do, the units will eventually break through your defenses. This is a replay of the last match I played. The whole time I thought the new guy red was doing bad as I kept knocking on blue's door. It may have been that I was playing urc but needless to say Porcing doesn't work. You simply cannot stop them well enough. He eventually over took me.

I watched as my enemy blue was building the massive level 3 defenses thinking wow, that guy surely has won! I resigned by giving my troops to red so I could see the rest of the battle. I even told the Red player that he was screwed! I watch the last of the game, chating away.

Red was being bombarded by the lrppc of the blue team and I thought, hell he is screwed. Then I remember the nuke artillery but red was building iontanks.. wtf right? watch and find out, this was one of the single most interesting games I have played in spring to date. The ending was cool!

http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/spring/good_game_of_EE.sdf

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 09 Jun 2006, 13:10

Because I can't take screenshots
Improvement?

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 09 Jun 2006, 15:00

Hrm thats interesting bruce but not the design I was going for hard to explain exactly where its not what I want.. Also Id prefer to try and do it myself with advice so that people cant yell at me later..

Im working on this atm..

Spring RTS Engine

Expand and Exterminate version 0.163 Released