Absolute Annihilation 1.5
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
Suppose the united states says that it's going to invade... uh... *thinks of defenseless third world country* Pakistan.. or.. uh... Turkey. They say they're going to do it in 10 years. Does this country build itself a hundred thousand flak guns in that time, which they know will likely be ineffective against the types of plane that are going to be used, or does it build aircraft which can directly intercept these planes in any worst-case-scenario?
Kinda vague and dumb example. But my point is, an air force is often necessary to counter an air force. The same way that an army is often required to counter an army. You can rely on static defenses, but these are just that - static. They aren't flexible or mobile, and they can't adapt to different tactics. Once they're there, they're there.
From my experience, static anti-air is roughly the same as static anti-ground. They're wonderful to have around because they have lots of HP and great firepower, but if your enemy can avoid that location they aren't good for anything. So - what you do is build them where you know your enemy will want to attack. Build them in a perimeter around fusions, metal makers, factories, and so on.
BTW: what's the verdict on fighters in 1.48? Too strong or dumb or what?
Kinda vague and dumb example. But my point is, an air force is often necessary to counter an air force. The same way that an army is often required to counter an army. You can rely on static defenses, but these are just that - static. They aren't flexible or mobile, and they can't adapt to different tactics. Once they're there, they're there.
From my experience, static anti-air is roughly the same as static anti-ground. They're wonderful to have around because they have lots of HP and great firepower, but if your enemy can avoid that location they aren't good for anything. So - what you do is build them where you know your enemy will want to attack. Build them in a perimeter around fusions, metal makers, factories, and so on.
BTW: what's the verdict on fighters in 1.48? Too strong or dumb or what?
I largely agree with your analysis there, but there are two small points/questions I'd like to bring up:Kixxe wrote:i made some testing.
a hurricanes metal cost = 313
a phenoix metal cost = 229
(note: this is modweb 2 vers ago, don't no changes to cost as i know of?)
that means you get 4 hurricanes for the same price as 6 phenoixs.
I tried em (4 hurricanes and 6 phenoixes) agsint a krogtaar each on CC remake.
note: Krogtaar has 20 000 hp.
the hurricanes took 4 runs to take it out.
the phenoixes took 8.
I agree with min, the hurricanes could just some nerfing to even out the gap. I also think it's not only his problem for expressing himself poorly, it's your problem since YOU seem to listen poorly.
1) are hurricanes the same speed as phoenixes? I haven't checked as no-one has even brought this subject up before...but higher speed increases survival time (due to weapon accuracies and the like), ability to maneuver around/go through defences, ability to attack before the enemy can react on bigger maps, and of course, DPS.
2) because of the 'more eggs in fewer baskets' approach core has, the fewer hurricanes are much easier to focus fire on and take out, even with higher HP.
If 1) isn't true and people decide that 2) is negligable, then maybe hurricane speed/AA defence/cost etc should be looked at. I personally think the number of bombs dropped should stay the same just because it's very cool and characteristic of Core's style.
That's still an 'if' though...As far as listening to people...I've listened to you, haven't I? I think you're probably correct. And you can call it 'listening poorly' if you want, but I'm going to categorically state that I'm not going to bother reading what someone says if their posts tend to be blocks of text starting with 'READ MY FUCKING POST DUMBASS BURN IN HELL' lol
Okay, so I was wrong about the AA turret...of course, someone else had just 'confirmed' for me that they didn't have one a few posts back... I did say 'IIRC' at the time and, after being told I was wrong, accepted it and said maybe they shouldn't have an AA turret (read: I suggested a nerf
).And min3mat? I'm not the one complaining lol...you started this debate. And I *would* be quite happy to talk to you if you didn't flame everyone at the first opportunity
Hurricanes are just very slightly slower than phoenixes, but they have a MUCH lower turnrate, those should be done by time, not # of runs.
Edit: OKay, i did these, found out that the phenixes were slower in killin the krogtarr, but only marginaly so (8 seconds out of the 30 or so the whole ordeal took)
When i finished this, I decided to test the huricane/phoenixes usefulness against some modest AA defences, and, i was shocked, the phoenixes on average did MUCH better than the hurricanes, I tested them against 2 chainsaws and 4 flak guns. with 12 hurricanes and 18 phoenixes, the phoenixes managed to destroy one chainsaw and nearly kill a flak gun, the hurricanes did not destroy anything.
By examining this, i think i have found that the problem is the hurricanes fly too low, many of them got hit by their own bombs when they went for the chainsaws, and the phoenixes were able to drop their bombs form a greater range.
I also tried a test with some long range anti-air missiles, the hurricanes were abysmal due to their lesser numbers being more hurt by the LRMs. 5/12 phoenixes brok through on this test and bombed the fusion reactors i ordered them to, with one of those doing two runs. Only 1 hurricane managed to drop it's bombs, and was shot down shortly thereafter.
Edit: OKay, i did these, found out that the phenixes were slower in killin the krogtarr, but only marginaly so (8 seconds out of the 30 or so the whole ordeal took)
When i finished this, I decided to test the huricane/phoenixes usefulness against some modest AA defences, and, i was shocked, the phoenixes on average did MUCH better than the hurricanes, I tested them against 2 chainsaws and 4 flak guns. with 12 hurricanes and 18 phoenixes, the phoenixes managed to destroy one chainsaw and nearly kill a flak gun, the hurricanes did not destroy anything.
By examining this, i think i have found that the problem is the hurricanes fly too low, many of them got hit by their own bombs when they went for the chainsaws, and the phoenixes were able to drop their bombs form a greater range.
I also tried a test with some long range anti-air missiles, the hurricanes were abysmal due to their lesser numbers being more hurt by the LRMs. 5/12 phoenixes brok through on this test and bombed the fusion reactors i ordered them to, with one of those doing two runs. Only 1 hurricane managed to drop it's bombs, and was shot down shortly thereafter.
Last edited by FireCrack on 06 Jun 2006, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
There was never a doubt in my mind that hurricanes were better than pheonixes you just have to take a lot more units into account before just saying it needs a nerf.Kixxe wrote:i made some testing.
a hurricanes metal cost = 313
a phenoix metal cost = 229
(note: this is modweb 2 vers ago, don't no changes to cost as i know of?)
that means you get 4 hurricanes for the same price as 6 phenoixs.
I tried em (4 hurricanes and 6 phenoixes) agsint a krogtaar each on CC remake.
note: Krogtaar has 20 000 hp.
the hurricanes took 4 runs to take it out.
the pheonixes took 8.
I agree with min, the hurricanes could just some nerfing to even out the gap. I also think it's not only his problem for expressing himself poorly, it's your problem since YOU seem to listen poorly.
Like that test, bombing a krogtaar would be defence, no? a moving krogtaar would be way easier to take out with 4 pheonixes and 2 stilletos than with 4 hurricanes.
And in comparison 4 blades are alot more effective in destroying a target protected by flak than a Krow, they are in no way mirror units.
Well if you bring the hurricane back in line with the pheonix you best give core back the helios carpet bomber as a certain someone seems to have forgotten that the reason hurricanes are as powerful as they are now is to make up for the fact that the cores uber carpet bomber the helios was removed,
As machio said, arm also have the emp bomber which rules, core doesnt have that option does it? so it should have a more powerful strategic boma, seem like common sense to me ^^
As machio said, arm also have the emp bomber which rules, core doesnt have that option does it? so it should have a more powerful strategic boma, seem like common sense to me ^^
I'll try increasing Hurricane's metal cost by... 50? 75? If it currently has an anti-fighter weapon as well, i'll cut it and see how that goes.
My hard drive is a lot more damaged than I'd anticipated. I'm running recovery software... I just hope all the GEM data is intact. My schedule tonight is going to be pretty full. I'll try for a release tomorrow assuming all goes well.
My hard drive is a lot more damaged than I'd anticipated. I'm running recovery software... I just hope all the GEM data is intact. My schedule tonight is going to be pretty full. I'll try for a release tomorrow assuming all goes well.
Last edited by Caydr on 06 Jun 2006, 20:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
You need full stops. :D
And yes. I find bombers fine tbh. Just give fighters more Hp, Or make fighters do less damage to eachother. I've seen my whole airforce of fighters killed by an equal number before I had a chance to move them.
Edit.
Grr, I posted at the same time as caydr.
And yes, A 50 metla cost increase sounds about right.
And yes. I find bombers fine tbh. Just give fighters more Hp, Or make fighters do less damage to eachother. I've seen my whole airforce of fighters killed by an equal number before I had a chance to move them.
Edit.
Grr, I posted at the same time as caydr.
And yes, A 50 metla cost increase sounds about right.
Not really a fair test. You don't use Strategic Bombers to take out AA, you use them to take out something valuable protected by AA. IE, a fusion plant, L3 gantry, nanotower/wind farm, nuke silo/anti-nuke, etc. If you can do this more effectively with Hurricanes (lower cost for the same effect), you're set.FireCrack wrote:When i finished this, I decided to test the huricane/phoenixes usefulness against some modest AA defences, and, i was shocked, the phoenixes on average did MUCH better than the hurricanes, I tested them against 2 chainsaws and 4 flak guns. with 12 hurricanes and 18 phoenixes, the phoenixes managed to destroy one chainsaw and nearly kill a flak gun, the hurricanes did not destroy anything.
That could be... I noticed a significantly reduced flight height, but I wasn't sure why.By examining this, i think i have found that the problem is the hurricanes fly too low, many of them got hit by their own bombs when they went for the chainsaws, and the phoenixes were able to drop their bombs form a greater range.
You know, i'm getting skeptic.
Did some more testing with bombers, 2 diffrent levels of AA. One with 2 flakkers and 1 mercury and radar, and one 11 flakkers, 1 mecury and radar. They both tried to take out an adv energy storage, and the results where rougly the same.
First test, they take out the E storage with ease and then kill the mecury before being shot down.
Second test, they make it trougth the 11 flakkers and some bomb the storage, but the diffrence in damage (about 500 hp) was not that big.
Offcourse, i still think in practice, the core bombers would prove more usefull and could use a slight nerf. The changes cadyr presented sounds pretty fair.
Also, reamber the tons of stuff i haven't tested. Fighters, how well would they defend? What about level 1 tech defences aginst an early rush of these things? ANd a moving army under bombardment? and so on and so on
Did some more testing with bombers, 2 diffrent levels of AA. One with 2 flakkers and 1 mercury and radar, and one 11 flakkers, 1 mecury and radar. They both tried to take out an adv energy storage, and the results where rougly the same.
First test, they take out the E storage with ease and then kill the mecury before being shot down.
Second test, they make it trougth the 11 flakkers and some bomb the storage, but the diffrence in damage (about 500 hp) was not that big.
Offcourse, i still think in practice, the core bombers would prove more usefull and could use a slight nerf. The changes cadyr presented sounds pretty fair.
Also, reamber the tons of stuff i haven't tested. Fighters, how well would they defend? What about level 1 tech defences aginst an early rush of these things? ANd a moving army under bombardment? and so on and so on
yeah steve, you know what you are right. what are they again? for that much punch i think that it was 1k metal or so? right? hmm actually i know it began with a 3, was it...3k?Id leave it as is tbh caydr I think theyre bang on tbh
no wait a freaking second. it is 300 METAL for a HURRICANE. 300
300
come on. ffs. if its going to be buffed coz the helios is removed, then make it a imbetween, not a uber cheap doom stick.
300 metal in t1 air? 2-3 bombers?
300 metal in t1 bots? 3-4 storms? 2-3 thuds?
the way its balanced by energy/BT makes it exponentially useful mid-late game where the main limit is metal (on a decent map) as Buildpower is easy to accumulate and by then you have moho-geos / fusions (2-3 t1 geos will really help too) nanotowers really help in this regard.
the way its balanced by energy/BT makes it exponentially useful mid-late game where the main limit is metal (on a decent map) as Buildpower is easy to accumulate and by then you have moho-geos / fusions (2-3 t1 geos will really help too) nanotowers really help in this regard.
;_;ALL planes are cheap... Metalwise that is
but also
ALL planes are expensive Energy/BT wise
so you can't really compare them with ground units!!!!
READ IT. READ IT!!!!
Good ideaLETS STOP DISCUSSION OF AA HERE AND MOVE TO THE AA FORUMS!!!