Are people stupid or just allergic to help?

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 27 May 2006, 02:23

[/quote]If you would like me to pass jusdgement on anyone I have missed... let me know.

Oh! Do me! Do me!

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » 27 May 2006, 03:36

Oh, can I have a label too? Please?

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 27 May 2006, 04:09

Fanger wrote:*cough* OPTIMUS PRIME *cough*

What? Can you explain that? In which context is my name connected with this topic. Please if you show with your finger at other ppl explain why.

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 27 May 2006, 04:16

Optimus Prime wrote:
Fanger wrote:*cough* OPTIMUS PRIME *cough*
What? Can you explain that? In which context is my name connected with this topic. Please if you show with your finger at other ppl explain why.

Being Internet Psichic, and in the absense of the people in question... I belive he is refering to smoth's inference that "some" people completely ignore any critisism, even if it is legitimate.

I think that the statement is marginally accurate, though for the most part I think it's just "cadyr like" protectiveness of your "true vision" as opposed to just plain closed mindedness.

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 27 May 2006, 06:40

I have a quick question:

Can we just forgive and learn? I think forget is a dumb thing to do, cause if you forget a mistake your just going to do it again!

Sounds like a lot of misunderstandings, takeingpeopletoseriouslyness and some "over egar" criticism's, if you get my drift.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 27 May 2006, 07:26

Why did you attack caydr smoth? Honestly, caydr doesn't go post anywhere, all he ever does is make feature requests for things that are usually very genuinly needed and adress criticism to his mod in his thread or where ever else they are. I can appreciate that not everyone likes AA, but the fact remains that most people do, or else it wouldn't be the most popular mod in spring. I lose a little respect for anyone I see attack caydr because all he really ever did was realease his project for free, the same way the rest of you did. He didn't do anything shady or under the table to make AA the most popular mod in spring, he just built it, but because he's popular everone seems to think that makes him the best candidate for a target. Maby if people critiqued nanoblobs with the same vigor that they critique AA argh would be much less of the annoyance that he is

and caydr would seem much less offencive.

That being said alot of what smoth said is absolutly correct. People seem to think otherwize but I know smoth, I know what he's been doing with the modding side of this engine and he is easily the most compitent and well versed spring developer. I can't tell you how many times I've personally been proved wrong by smoth with things I've said both publicly and privately. If there's one thing wrong with smoth is that he's a very poor teacher, but really, you could do to try to work with him rather then try to work against him when he makes his presance known in something involving your project.

In adressing of argh: Argh is the only spring modder that has a mod fully up to date with current spring technology. I also personally find it great that Argh's mod pushes the spring engine to the limit, it has and will continue to be a great testing peice for spring developers trying to improve preformance of the engine, and has been monumental for AI developers. Argh is also a really nice and helpful guy, maby a bit more arrogant then he needs to be, but still.

Overall I think alot of you would get alot farther using a bit of tact and taking things a bit less personally. I've seen alot of posts saying things like "you're stupid, it's this way and I have proof" rather then just saying "It's this way, here's the proof". More would get done if more of you wasted less time flaming and counterflaming and more time working, be it alone or with others.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 27 May 2006, 08:46

Wow. How did I miss this thread?

Oh boy where to start... I will try not to rant here. I think about 50 times faster than I type (which is scary considering that I type at 90 wpm) so sometimes I don't make a lot of sense.

Guys to put smoth's original post in a somewhat different light:
Many of us (Myself included) break our backs to help other people with technical aspects of spring. Most of the time when someone does something that took a lot of time and gives it away freely, no matter how well done, we end up taking a hell of a time for it.

I think it's kinda funny that most people don't remember that I was the one that originally was bitching about the shitty quality and textures in other maps. I practiced what I preach, and here we have people producoing high quality maps all the time. A lot of people have serious problems with balancing maps resource and layout wise, whereas I have always done mine on mathmatical calculation and I think it is one of the best avenues.

Generally I decline to discuss the maps I don't like because people immediately jump on me for "being an asshole", regardless of how much I'm trying to help. I don't think many people realize that from the ground up, to date, I have taught no less than 16 people how to make maps. Sometimes I will tout my own accomplishments to people who are just being assholes because I know they will have nothing to say. The funniest thing that happens is when sometimes people will tell me that my maps suck. I always ask what are their top 5 maps. Generally 2 or 3 of mine are in their favorites. I always get a kick out of that.

Actually, Smoth is an excellent teacher. It's just required that you listen and try to understand. He has broken his back to teach me things in spring and photoshop. Hell when I was trying out bryce he helped me more than anyone else.

See the simple truth is that some people don't like us as a whole and will do their very best to discredit/annoy us.

My personal pet peeve is attention whoring. There are certain people on this forum that do it a LOT. Like terriers about to get their first lay saying LOOKY LOOKY LOOKY!

As far as mods go...

Spring is gonna/getting buttraped because of Total Annihilation. The fact that spring devs originally built the game with such a shortsighted goal in mind boggles me. Spring simply needs to differentiate more and put all the mods on a more level playing field and for gods sake get rid of the TA in front of spring. How many former starcrap players are gonna come to spring? Very few to none. As it is, damn near everyone in this community wants everything to be a form of TA. Spring is in the process of shooting it's foot because of this.

Here is some simple truth about mods: AA, EE and Gundam, and Nanoblobs are COMPLETELY different games from one another. The only thing they share is the resource system.

AA currently has a strangle hold on spring at the moment and that is not a good thing. If ta is the only thing being played in spring, all the players who thought ta was just ok are not really gonna be interested in spring. You can argue that fact all you want but in the end it is what it is: Fact.

We need some way of promoting all the mods. A new gui that is customizable on a per mod basis will go a long way towards doing that.

The community as a whole needs to get it's head out of it's ass and be more constructive. Hell sometimes this place reminds me of annihilated.com

Is there a possibility that this community could pull together rather than pull against one another?

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 27 May 2006, 09:33

Swift, I am going to try and file down my fangs. I am going to try and be less heavy handed as this is a problem people have with me IRL. The way I talk on this forum really is how I talk in real life. I do drive people nuts and I have been known to tear someone apart over little shit.

I am always admitting I am an asshole... with good intent which if I can get rid of the asshole part I have a feeling people will not be as offended by me. As far as Caydr, I have said MY peace with the guy a long time ago. The only one that is really biting my arse is argh. I know he can be a nice guy and I probably did go a bit harsh(as always). Not that anyone cares but I think this post has served is purpose. I vented. Steve and machiosaber did to.

I am also happy that someone else can see the flaming for the sake of stoping someone. I was really starting to worry that I was crazy or something. Thanks for being understanding swiftspear.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 27 May 2006, 13:41

Forboding Angel wrote: AA currently has a strangle hold on spring at the moment and that is not a good thing. If ta is the only thing being played in spring, all the players who thought ta was just ok are not really gonna be interested in spring. You can argue that fact all you want but in the end it is what it is: Fact.

If TA isn't being played in spring then this project doesn't really have a market point. Most of the players I know who joined the spring comunity did because they heard it was a TA remake.

The reason AA is the most played mod in spring is very simple, and it isn't caydr's fault. AA it basicly just the best showcase for what the spring engine is capable of, and it has the largest ammount of units with the biggest superunits. If you want to sell a game to TA fans it had better be as big as TA.

As cool as the other modding projects out there are few of them even attempt to tackle the scale of the original TA. Advertizing is a relitively small problem in retrospective. You can't play Spring without seeing all the other mods being played, and you can directly download those mods from right out of the lobby client. The reason that other mods aren't being played as much as AA is that they don't attack the selling points that attract a TA fan as much as AA does. It's a failure to adress your market demographic, not spring dev's failure to help you advertize your mod, not caydr's unfair tactics in the marketing of his mod.

AA's dominance over other mods in spring is fairly logical, and I don't think that it's really fair to consider it a negitive. Very likely without AA we wouldn't more mods being played, we'd just have less players in spring overall. Spring owes alot to AA and it's best to work with it, not against it.

Rayden · Post by **Rayden** » 27 May 2006, 13:52

The majority of people will play the funniest and most interesting mod *point*

But i agree that TASpring attracts many TA players and so AA has a advantage. But if you want to get more people for other mods try to advertise it in different forums .. if it's good people will play it.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 27 May 2006, 13:56

Agreed, aa is the most popular mod simply because its the best, most polished mod most varied mod. Its also the mod that most new players will be able to relate to seeing as most people get spring to play TA in 3d :)
I dont really see any advertising for it bar the fact most games in lobby are aa.
If another non ta based mod appeared with similar properties then im sure it would gradually become as popular.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 27 May 2006, 14:06

SinbadEV wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote:
Fanger wrote:*cough* OPTIMUS PRIME *cough*
What? Can you explain that? In which context is my name connected with this topic. Please if you show with your finger at other ppl explain why.
Being Internet Psichic, and in the absense of the people in question... I belive he is refering to smoth's inference that "some" people completely ignore any critisism, even if it is legitimate.

I think that the statement is marginally accurate, though for the most part I think it's just "cadyr like" protectiveness of your "true vision" as opposed to just plain closed mindedness.

"Being Internet Psichic, and in the absense of the people in question..." ah and you are the man who knows that

sorry but thats poor -.-

""some" people completely ignore any critisism"... i think you dont know what you are talking about. I guess that you are thinking at low ff or some other changes ppl wanted to bring in FF (else i cant remember where i ever was ignorant).
You should first make your own mod to understand WHY some modders act like they do. Normally they have a goal for their mod and they want to bring THEIR ideas into a modification which they think is a good one and which they like to play.
So if some ppl think their ideas are better, but they dont fit with the goal of the mod, the modders MUST ignore them. I ever have an open ear to imbalance problems or ideas with productive critique and most ppl know that and speak to me directly in the lobby. But i dont like it when ppl who are noobs and dont wanna learn how to play a different mod than their lovely supermod flame about things they dont understand.

Rayden · Post by **Rayden** » 27 May 2006, 14:11

Ok i've modded some things in past and if you say modders have to ignore requests from people who are interested in the mod and so want to contribute something, it's the decision the modder has to live with. But maybe he has only few players for this mod then.

And about noobish people who just don't wanna learn the mod. Maybe it's just because they dislike the mod and don't see any sense in learning it

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 27 May 2006, 14:13

Hey man, I was just interpreting what I thought the guy meant, seeing as he wasn't going to tell you himself... and I just said exactly what you said with my:

though for the most part I think it's just "cadyr like" protectiveness of your "true vision" as opposed to just plain closed mindedness.

I just said it more sucinctly and insultingly.

krogothe · Post by **krogothe** » 27 May 2006, 15:23

People always seem to think theyre "unlucky" and that others give them shit for "no reason" or "jealousy". Its about time you come out of the nappies and realise that if people are giving you shit for doing something good for the community there just *might* be a slight problem with your attitude or manners.
Ive got absolutely nothing against you (i like your work) but your post was so pointless and meaningless that I just had to comment in a negative way...

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 27 May 2006, 16:03

Optimus Prime wrote: So if some ppl think their ideas are better, but they dont fit with the goal of the mod, the modders MUST ignore them.

With all due respect, it's bad game design practice to have a "goal of the game". The goal of every game is the same, make a fun playing experiance and have people play it, if you put anything above that you're making a massive design error from the getgo. This goal is reached through methods, and those methods act as rails apon which a developer builds his concept. I could quote a bunch of fun little quippets that people always use to justify moving one way or another with thier given methods, but in the end of it I'll just say that you should be constantly reevaluating the methods you're using to reach the goal of making a fun game, if they get stale they end up working against you.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 27 May 2006, 16:05

ok... so i got you wrong. My fault.

I never said that the goel is not fun. But fun is relative and i want to bring a different fun to the ppl than you think. I love FF more than all other mods and some other ppl do so too. Even if we are the minority, i think its worthy to stay at the direction the mod goes.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 27 May 2006, 16:15

I don't really know the issue, I'm just speaking in general terms. If you know your target demographic and you are building for them then I really have no criticisms of you.

Optimus Prime · Post by **Optimus Prime** » 27 May 2006, 16:25

i just want to say that really most ppl who ever tried FF love it. The last one was aGorm who seems to be really impressed of the mod.
I know that FF goes a differnt way than most other mods do (which are a lot faster) but i think exactly that is one of the pros of FF.
Who wants to have 10 mods which are all equal only with different more units?

But back to the topic: i think the community isnt that bad. You get a lot of help if you ask and thats very important. Also the average age of the persons posting here is above 20, so we should be able to communicate with respect to each other even if you dont like him.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 27 May 2006, 16:40

Rayden wrote:The majority of people will play the funniest and most interesting mod *point*

But i agree that TASpring attracts many TA players and so AA has a advantage. But if you want to get more people for other mods try to advertise it in different forums .. if it's good people will play it.

Not true. People will play what they feel they are the most familiar with and generally not try anything else.

That is a good idea about advertising in different forums though. I like that idea.

@SS: I wasn't daying it's caydr's fault, in fact, when he's done with GEM he's gonna wish he had never thought of AA, cause it will most likely have the same problem.

What do you mean about tackling the scale of OTA? And btw I'm calling bullshit on that statement. Other mods encourage tactics. TA destroyed the idea of using real life tactics, unless you count the comm bomb.

Lets make a short list of TA tactics:

Comm bombing

Flash rush

AK/Peewee farming

Getting the first bertha up

Getting lv 3 first

Punisher/guardian creep

Defence line creep

Any of those real life tactics? No. Because if you tried an airdrop in TA you would fail miserably. Try amphibious units in TA = FTL Not to mention all the other kinds or tactics that just don't work. So telling me that the scale of TA was SO big is a steaming pile of crap. (no offense intended btw)

Spring RTS Engine

Are people stupid or just allergic to help?