Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46

esteroth12 · Post by **esteroth12** » 23 May 2006, 15:31

NOiZE wrote:Because they are the PWN everything units... and you would have to use less strategy to win...

and thats a good thing!?! you should always need at least a little strategy...

Also, IMO, there needs to be a lvl3 equivalent defense... something better than the Annihilator that can take down a Krog... if the enemy is porcing, and you attack and fail (which will be a problem anyway

), there needs to be something that can stop, at least in smaller groups than currently, some lvl3

Soulless1 · Post by **Soulless1** » 23 May 2006, 15:33

just make it so vulcans/buzzsaws do better damage to mechs so people would actually build them if the enemy tried to use nothing but kroggies

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 23 May 2006, 17:12

Soulless1 wrote:just make it so vulcans/buzzsaws do better damage to mechs so people would actually build them if the enemy tried to use nothing but kroggies

I keep saying that Buzzsaws/Vulcans need to be returned to their OTA, short-ranged forms (the OTA vulcan/buzzsaw had a rather mediocre range - something like 3000). My idea is to give them a range of about 2200, plus let them fire High Trajectory if necessary. And cut them down to costing about 5x a Bertha.

So, with a Vulcan/Buzzsaw, you get a beefy cannon that can obliterate any incoming land army, and a high trajectory cannon you can use to bombard the enemy base even if out of sight if you've got the cojones to build the damn thing close enough to his base to shoot - which'd be tricky, given the monstrous labour it takes to get one assembled. Thus, the Bertha remains the offensive LRPC, and the Vulcan becomes the defensive RFPC and mortar.

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 23 May 2006, 17:37

buzz/vulc only need to be cheaper, they blow hard atm.

10 berthas fire as fasst as buzz and cost the same. So they are much better, xtra damage to mechs etc.

Buzz would be bad even for 20k metal, not 45k ...

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 23 May 2006, 17:41

ginekolog wrote:buzz/vulc only need to be cheaper, they blow hard atm.

10 berthas fire as fasst as buzz and cost the same. So they are much better, xtra damage to mechs etc.

Buzz would be bad even for 20k metal, not 45k ...

Hmm - I've always detested the "extra damage vs" things. If it hits X, it damages X. Currently, the majority units that special damage in AA are the aircraft (because you need anti-air-weapons) and the subs (because you need anti-sub-weapons). Only a handful of things otherwise do special damage.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 23 May 2006, 17:42

Ehh... Pxtl, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think a gun which eliminates all threat of land attack is a good thing. Honestly the only reason Vulcans/Buzzsaws are still in the game, in any form, is because Cavedog made them - and I've only ever cut one Cavedog unit.

As Bruce pointed out, these large numbers of proposed new L3 units aren't AA style. They're something you'd find in TAUCP. Units for the sake of units, no clearly defined roles, just something that's X more powerful than Y.

That said, I'm probably going to add at least one new L3 tank for arm and core, to help round things out.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 23 May 2006, 17:42

only point in buzz in OTA was when you were close to unit cap (when it was 250)
same in spring T.T
i don't want a wtfpwnerer VRRFOMGWTFLOLOLOLRPC

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 23 May 2006, 17:47

Yeah, exactly my point. They have no place in this game, to be honest. If not for the fact that they're Cavedog and look really damn cool, I'd never consider keeping them in.

...this changelog is getting REALLY long.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 23 May 2006, 17:48

betatesters FTW? seriously, at the least me and NOiZE would be more than happy to help!

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 23 May 2006, 18:09

Wasn't the idea behind the LVL3 Vehicle Factory intended to be a counter and equivalent to the LVL3 Kbot gantry?

Having some Vehicles strong enough to deal with Mechs would be a better incentive for more players to Use vehicles.

As is, even players that start out with Vehicles get stopped cold once mechs start getting into the fighting.

There are currently no serious alternatives to building Banthas and Krogoth Class units, and IMO it makes sence to offer an equivalent force for vehicle players.

You guys are saying NO MORE WTFPWN units, then what is the Orcone and Bantha and all the other heavy Kbots doing there in the first place?

Kbots are nice, I totally agree, but they shouldn't be the only course of action for every game.

Currently if I want to take a LVL3 Kbot player on head to head, I either build swarms of gunships or build my own LVL3 gantry to compete, and thats not always possible if you've dedicated all your resources into making Vehicles.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 23 May 2006, 19:22

Caydr wrote:Ehh... Pxtl, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think a gun which eliminates all threat of land attack is a good thing. Honestly the only reason Vulcans/Buzzsaws are still in the game, in any form, is because Cavedog made them - and I've only ever cut one Cavedog unit.

As Bruce pointed out, these large numbers of proposed new L3 units aren't AA style. They're something you'd find in TAUCP. Units for the sake of units, no clearly defined roles, just something that's X more powerful than Y.

That said, I'm probably going to add at least one new L3 tank for arm and core, to help round things out.

Well, my original plan was to have them be stuck on high-trajectory (making them nigh-useless for defense) so that they could be used for the secondary purpose (build this impossible monstrosity near the enemy base to pulverise it into oblivion). I just suggested the alternate form because other guys were talking about a potential Krog defense.

And yes, I agree that all this L3 action is pointless - that's why I suggested just the "L3 Construction Vehicle".

Oh, and for people complaining about overpowered Banthas/Krogs: a swarm of Golis will give either of those things a really bad day, particularly if there's a BLOD behind them. Hell, I've done a number on an unsupported Krog using L1 bombers.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 23 May 2006, 19:46

T3 are nerfed now
they are no longer necessary in your average game
so T2 becomes (like T1) a very important phase. where the sheer power and speed of bulldogs, the awesomeness of merls and wonder of having a mobile flak vehicle as well as gol's, penetrators panthers reapers...
basically T3 shall be seen rarely and should be fairly easy to counter, obviously late on in the game it is just as viable. but the balance between T2->T3 will be a lot better

Deathblane · Post by **Deathblane** » 23 May 2006, 20:13

Good. Now about those blasted ships....

2pacalypse · Post by **2pacalypse** » 23 May 2006, 20:23

Why should T3 be any easier to counter? A gantry is a large investment of time and resources, and an Orcone takes piles of metal and energy to put together.

An Orcone costs 42442 metal.

That's the equivalent of:
14 Annihilators (three on a hill can do serious damage to an Orcone, as well as anything else that dares to come near them)
45 Bulldogs (cram these in your opponent's base while he's taking forever to build the Orcone!)
80 Sharpshooters (have you seen what sharpshooters do to T3?)
144 Brawlers (air > T3)
943 Peewees (swarm the thing to death!)

Any of these will stop the Orcone in its tracks, and if you're clever you can build half as many and send them to your opponent's base while he's still busy building the Orcone.

I don't think that T3 is overpowered because you can still defend against T3 using T2 buildings (annihilators, yum!), and the time it takes for your opponent to even get T3 is your window to run in and attack your opponent. If you're sitting around in your base without attacking/scouting and then you're surprised when you find out that your opponent's been building a giant robot for the last 20 minutes, then it's your own fault!

I'm also excited over the idea of T3 vehicles, so long as the all-terrain vehicles aren't too powerful. Giant robots + giant tanks sound like a fun combination!

I still don't think that the commander needs to be nerfed, though...

Deathblane · Post by **Deathblane** » 23 May 2006, 20:43

The problem with T3 is it's a lot easier to micro 1 Uber unit and some escorts (and get them where you want them) than it is to mass and controll an equivilent number of T2 units.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 23 May 2006, 20:44

the ocrone and the krog are fine..

but personally i really dislike the other L3 units... they are cheap!

2pacalypse · Post by **2pacalypse** » 23 May 2006, 21:09

The problem with T3 is it's a lot easier to micro 1 Uber unit and some escorts (and get them where you want them) than it is to mass and controll an equivilent number of T2 units.

Having a bunch of T2 units can also be an advantage in that regard, since you can split up your T2 units whereas with one super unit you can't. Want to attack your opponent's base from two sides at once? How about split apart when you've broken through his lines so as to do as much damage as possible? You can't do that with just one T3 unit.

The fact that T3 units are easier to micro is a benefit for them, but they're also expensive and require a lot of time to get to. If there were no benefits to going T3, then nobody would! :)

the ocrone and the krog are fine..

but personally i really dislike the other L3 units... they are cheap!

One Razorback (my personal favorite T3 unit, and in my opinion the most cost effective) costs 3626 Metal.

It can be defeated by:

3 Bulldogs (944 metal/pc, 2,832 metal total) = 794 metal ahead for the Bulldogs, with one Bulldog left standing.

3 Penetrators (1,129 metal/pc, 3,387 metal total) = 239 metal ahead for the Penetrators, with all three left standing. (This was tested with the Penetrators getting the first shot in, which they should with their much longer range.)

10 Zeus (354 metal/pc, 3,540 metal total) = 86 metal ahead for the Zeus, with five Zeus left standing.

9 Recluses (375 metal/pc, 3,375 metal total) = 251 metal ahead for the Recluses, with three left standing.

I tested all of this by loading up a map, putting a Razorback in the corner, giving it computer control and then by having my units run after it. After the battle, I self-d'd whatever remained and sent Farks in to clean up the mess. Massed T3 units will obviously make it harder for T2 units to get close, but at the same time you could also mass T2 units or back them up with artillery/snipers/aircraft.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 23 May 2006, 21:17

who. gives. a. shit.
T3 should be used in small numbers at the end of games if at all.
a more expensive plant will help this.
end. of. story.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 23 May 2006, 21:19

What's the point of those units then???

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 23 May 2006, 21:21

final porcbreakers
concentrated firepower
heavy AA (CORE only)
to more efficiently use your unit count

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46