..:: New GUI Design - in progress ::..
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jouninkomiko
- Posts: 436
- Joined: 26 Aug 2004, 08:11
I like the unit commands list. But what is use usefull in having a list of all selected groups and their HP?
I found the current HP status of my non-active units not important in Spring. since they regen theirselfs and are alwasy at full HP when I need them. (Mostly).
(Ofcourse I could disable that screen)
I found the current HP status of my non-active units not important in Spring. since they regen theirselfs and are alwasy at full HP when I need them. (Mostly).
(Ofcourse I could disable that screen)
The resource bars in the build menu are totally flawed
For one I have a few comments on things before I rubbish them.
Someone mentioned the bars and how they're scaled based on income outcome etc... This means that as your economy changes the bars change and your perspective is ruined.
And if the bars don't change then they become misinformative as your economy grows.
Anyways, how're we to know what exactly the bars represent? Good design stresses that a control has a mapping, a user should be able to see it's layout and design and know instantly what it does or says, yet those bars are totally ambiguous, and even if the user guesses that they're to do with resources and costs which bar represents which and why are there 3 bars for 2 resources? There are no labels, no scales, no explanations, nothing, the only reason we could use them is because we're not new users who've never played spring before and have never read this thread.
I think mouse overs would be a better idea combined with a small info button in the corner of the build pic should the user not realize mouse overs are there or wishes to turn them off, the info button, probably a small i would display the mouse over when clicked and the mouse over could be moved about so as to compare items in detail, and could even show the build pics of what they build if they're a factory or builder.
Also, in a game you want to see as much fo the battlefield as you can while havign the most options showing at the same time.
There needs to be a button that collapses every single panel on display.
The player statistics window should be more OTA like, OR the text needs to be changed so it's in a single colour and not player colour OR it's white text with a black outline, because some of those usernames are hard to see on that background.
Also perhaps a toggle at the bottom to switch betwene kills+losses and the data we see at the bottom currently such as ping etc.
Also the clock should be in that panel too at the bottom, preferably just above the toggle.
Order buttons that dont apply shouldnt be shown at all not just greyed out.
Using the cursor may be intuitive after a game or two but a new user doesnt know all the cursors and what they look like and do in the first game.
A pretty GUI just isnt enough. And a GUI that is Veteran friendly isnt enough either, we need to have an itnerface that's instantly usable.
Also, what was wrong with what OTA did and have a switch at the top to switch from buildings to orders/toggles? It would save a lot of space and allow us to make the side bar thinner (It's still too wide).
For one I have a few comments on things before I rubbish them.
Someone mentioned the bars and how they're scaled based on income outcome etc... This means that as your economy changes the bars change and your perspective is ruined.
And if the bars don't change then they become misinformative as your economy grows.
Anyways, how're we to know what exactly the bars represent? Good design stresses that a control has a mapping, a user should be able to see it's layout and design and know instantly what it does or says, yet those bars are totally ambiguous, and even if the user guesses that they're to do with resources and costs which bar represents which and why are there 3 bars for 2 resources? There are no labels, no scales, no explanations, nothing, the only reason we could use them is because we're not new users who've never played spring before and have never read this thread.
I think mouse overs would be a better idea combined with a small info button in the corner of the build pic should the user not realize mouse overs are there or wishes to turn them off, the info button, probably a small i would display the mouse over when clicked and the mouse over could be moved about so as to compare items in detail, and could even show the build pics of what they build if they're a factory or builder.
Also, in a game you want to see as much fo the battlefield as you can while havign the most options showing at the same time.
There needs to be a button that collapses every single panel on display.
The player statistics window should be more OTA like, OR the text needs to be changed so it's in a single colour and not player colour OR it's white text with a black outline, because some of those usernames are hard to see on that background.
Also perhaps a toggle at the bottom to switch betwene kills+losses and the data we see at the bottom currently such as ping etc.
Also the clock should be in that panel too at the bottom, preferably just above the toggle.
Order buttons that dont apply shouldnt be shown at all not just greyed out.
Using the cursor may be intuitive after a game or two but a new user doesnt know all the cursors and what they look like and do in the first game.
A pretty GUI just isnt enough. And a GUI that is Veteran friendly isnt enough either, we need to have an itnerface that's instantly usable.
Also, what was wrong with what OTA did and have a switch at the top to switch from buildings to orders/toggles? It would save a lot of space and allow us to make the side bar thinner (It's still too wide).
While the transparency looks cool, I've always felt that having it puts our menus in sort of a weakling, or faded context, and I feel that actually serves to drive players away from Spring. If you look at a lot of commerical RTS games, the interfaces are continuous and opaque. Such, I believe conveys a more polished feel..
Addtionally, I feel that there needs to be some space that shows your allies resources and their drain a la SY's Demo recorder.
Addtionally, I feel that there needs to be some space that shows your allies resources and their drain a la SY's Demo recorder.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
if that was the only chice I had, I would prefer to stay with the current guiNeuralize wrote:While the transparency looks cool, I've always felt that having it puts our menus in sort of a weakling, or faded context, and I feel that actually serves to drive players away from Spring. If you look at a lot of commerical RTS games, the interfaces are continuous and opaque. Such, I believe conveys a more polished feel..
Addtionally, I feel that there needs to be some space that shows your allies resources and their drain a la SY's Demo recorder.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
if that was the only chice I had, I would prefer to stay with the current guiNeuralize wrote:While the transparency looks cool, I've always felt that having it puts our menus in sort of a weakling, or faded context, and I feel that actually serves to drive players away from Spring. If you look at a lot of commerical RTS games, the interfaces are continuous and opaque. Such, I believe conveys a more polished feel..
Addtionally, I feel that there needs to be some space that shows your allies resources and their drain a la SY's Demo recorder.
I agree, anything behind a semitransparent gui would be hard to see and you couldnt click/select it anyways, the only reason for a transparent GUI would be looks and quite frankly i rather have it solid than transparent.Neuralize wrote:While the transparency looks cool, I've always felt that having it puts our menus in sort of a weakling, or faded context, and I feel that actually serves to drive players away from Spring. If you look at a lot of commerical RTS games, the interfaces are continuous and opaque. Such, I believe conveys a more polished feel..
Since TAB strangely isn't mapped to anything (how rare is that in a pc game), maybe a push of it could toggle the interface on/off.
I don't agree with the guy who said there should be an Orders/Build switch. The only time you ever see buildpics is when you've got a constructor selected, which isn't at any time when you need that much of the screen. Otherwise, all you need is the orders thing.
And honestly, many of those orders are *never* used, except for in rare circumstances. For instance, how often do you actually need to toggle the standing movement state? (hold position, maneuver, roam) How often do you need to change the standing firing orders? (hold fire... etc) Basically it's on an average of once per game - when you're setting your commander to hold fire so that you can sneak him in close to something valuable while cloaked.
Cloaking is another one. Either you want something cloaked, or you don't. Most any mod will have a unit already be cloaked when it's first built if that's how it's supposed to be. In AA, there is maybe 2 that actually need to be turned on or off: commanders and the sniper. So it's a rare thing to be used.
Land At is a good idea but again, it's used on average once or twice per game.
Therefore, I'm proposing that the orders interface be broken into two panels:
1 has: Stop, Attack, Patrol, Reclaim, Rez - If someone didn't know keyboard shortcuts, these are the ones he'd use frequently. These should all be on one row, square buttons.
2 has: Standing Movement Order, Standing Firing Order, Cloak, D-Gun, Capture (all Commander actions), Land At, and anything else there might need to be.
Then there's the build menu, etc.
Move is, in my humble opinion, utterly useless. It shouldn't even be in the interface. Same for Guard - it's context sensitive and there's no reason at all why it would be used. I mean EVER... think about it. Pretty much the same for Repair, unless you can make a circle and repair a wide area of units with it (I don't remember). If that's the case, it should be with Reclaim and Rez.
The only reason reclaim and rez are on there is because they do that aforementioned circle-thing. Otherwise they're totally context sensitive.
I don't agree with the guy who said there should be an Orders/Build switch. The only time you ever see buildpics is when you've got a constructor selected, which isn't at any time when you need that much of the screen. Otherwise, all you need is the orders thing.
And honestly, many of those orders are *never* used, except for in rare circumstances. For instance, how often do you actually need to toggle the standing movement state? (hold position, maneuver, roam) How often do you need to change the standing firing orders? (hold fire... etc) Basically it's on an average of once per game - when you're setting your commander to hold fire so that you can sneak him in close to something valuable while cloaked.
Cloaking is another one. Either you want something cloaked, or you don't. Most any mod will have a unit already be cloaked when it's first built if that's how it's supposed to be. In AA, there is maybe 2 that actually need to be turned on or off: commanders and the sniper. So it's a rare thing to be used.
Land At is a good idea but again, it's used on average once or twice per game.
Therefore, I'm proposing that the orders interface be broken into two panels:
1 has: Stop, Attack, Patrol, Reclaim, Rez - If someone didn't know keyboard shortcuts, these are the ones he'd use frequently. These should all be on one row, square buttons.
2 has: Standing Movement Order, Standing Firing Order, Cloak, D-Gun, Capture (all Commander actions), Land At, and anything else there might need to be.
Then there's the build menu, etc.
Move is, in my humble opinion, utterly useless. It shouldn't even be in the interface. Same for Guard - it's context sensitive and there's no reason at all why it would be used. I mean EVER... think about it. Pretty much the same for Repair, unless you can make a circle and repair a wide area of units with it (I don't remember). If that's the case, it should be with Reclaim and Rez.
The only reason reclaim and rez are on there is because they do that aforementioned circle-thing. Otherwise they're totally context sensitive.
Not toggle on/off. Then a newbie hits tab and has no idea how to get his interface back. Minimized to bars at the edge of the screen, with a name on each bar and an obivous button for returning it to full size.Caydr wrote:Since TAB strangely isn't mapped to anything (how rare is that in a pc game), maybe a push of it could toggle the interface on/off.
I tend to use those a little more often, especially when operating close to enemy defences. When you're doing that, you really don't want your units wandering into range of an HLT or BLoD just because they saw an enemy construction unit wander by just out of their weapon range.And honestly, many of those orders are *never* used, except for in rare circumstances. For instance, how often do you actually need to toggle the standing movement state? (hold position, maneuver, roam) How often do you need to change the standing firing orders? (hold fire... etc) Basically it's on an average of once per game - when you're setting your commander to hold fire so that you can sneak him in close to something valuable while cloaked.
Commander, Sharpshooter, Gremlin, Spy Kbots. That's four - almost every mobile unit that can cloak.In AA, there is maybe 2 that actually need to be turned on or off: commanders and the sniper.
If ever. Though that's very mod-dependent.Land At is a good idea but again, it's used on average once or twice per game.
On/Off, Load, Unload, Select AI, High/Low Trajectory.2 has: Standing Movement Order, Standing Firing Order, Cloak, D-Gun, Capture (all Commander actions), Land At, and anything else there might need to be.
Move and Repair I'll give you. But Guard? Have you ever tried to issue a context guard order on a damaged unit with a construction unit? You can't do it. Since the unit's damaged, you can only right-click to issue a "Repair" order, which means you have to come back when it's done to issue a "Guard" order. If you hit "G" and issue a guard order manually, the unit will repair the target and then go into its usual guarding behaviour immediately.Move is, in my humble opinion, utterly useless. It shouldn't even be in the interface. Same for Guard - it's context sensitive and there's no reason at all why it would be used. I mean EVER... think about it. Pretty much the same for Repair, unless you can make a circle and repair a wide area of units with it (I don't remember). If that's the case, it should be with Reclaim and Rez.
Move, perhaps, could be replaced by the oft-requested "Move Attack" order.
I don't know how unusual this is, but the way I play, I always have my factories in the same hotkey group as my main attack force. That way, I always have new reinforcements arriving at the battle no matter where it needs to be. If I need to do something tricky, moving around an enemy strong point, I will create a new group without a factory.Caydr wrote:I don't agree with the guy who said there should be an Orders/Build switch. The only time you ever see buildpics is when you've got a constructor selected, which isn't at any time when you need that much of the screen. Otherwise, all you need is the orders thing.
The point I am trying to make is I at least do see buildpics at the same time I need to see much of the screen. (It also annoys me when some factories don't have a context attack, but that is another issue entirely.)
You're mostly correct, but there are a few points I disagree on:Caydr wrote:stuff
1) repair/guard are ambiguous for con-bots. They can guard_or_repair a damaged friendly unit. And since repair is the intelligent context-sensitive-command, the "guard" command needs to be there.
2) while I rarely use the "firing orders" toggles, I often use the movement toggles, particularly in naval actions. Scout boats have a nasty habit of wandering off to die when they're being brought along as sighting/anti-air units, not combat vehicles. Ordering them to hold position is very common.
3) Dragon's eyes, mines, etc. all suck energy like a hoover when cloaked. I frequently throw them into a big group with my metal makers for "stuff I have to toggle when the crap hits the fan".
on the subject of rez and reclaim, you also have the situation where you need your farks collecting metal instead of rezzing peewees... I can't think of any other reason for it...
basic principles:
if there is only one kind of target for a specific command, and it is the default behavior for all targets, you don't need a button or a shortcut... problem is, nothing fits this category, sometimes you want to attack ground, or wreakage... sometimes you want to reclaim or capture an enemy unit... sometimes you want to reclaim a wreakage when you could be rezzing it... sometimes you want to move to a position that is currently covered by another unit, with the intention of moving the unit after... and the default being to guard needs to be overridden by an express move command... what needs to happen, is for every action to have a key-shortcut, and for every button associated with this acction to show this shortcut key... then people will learn them and be able to hide them... maybe let people turn on and off buttons in a pop-up with checkboxes... and the command window would collaps and make more room as you removed buttons...
I know this isn't the place... but mapping C to capture and mapping wacky fps possition to, like CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+T or something obscure makes more sense...
basic principles:
if there is only one kind of target for a specific command, and it is the default behavior for all targets, you don't need a button or a shortcut... problem is, nothing fits this category, sometimes you want to attack ground, or wreakage... sometimes you want to reclaim or capture an enemy unit... sometimes you want to reclaim a wreakage when you could be rezzing it... sometimes you want to move to a position that is currently covered by another unit, with the intention of moving the unit after... and the default being to guard needs to be overridden by an express move command... what needs to happen, is for every action to have a key-shortcut, and for every button associated with this acction to show this shortcut key... then people will learn them and be able to hide them... maybe let people turn on and off buttons in a pop-up with checkboxes... and the command window would collaps and make more room as you removed buttons...
I know this isn't the place... but mapping C to capture and mapping wacky fps possition to, like CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+T or something obscure makes more sense...
