Second E&E copyright discussion split

[Argh]

Look, let's get back on topic, and get down to brass tacks.

99% percent of this particular discussion, in my opinion, is off-base.

Look, it's really, really simple. Want your mod to be 100% legal and sell-able? Then don't re-use somebody else's intellectual property.

Period.

No sound, copied FBIs, no original structures in files like the TDFs, no COB/BOS code, no un-modified models, no textures. Then it's completely, unquestionably, unchallengably legal.

For EE to get even close, they'd have to rebuild every texture used, rebuild a large chunk of the sound, and rebuild most of the scripts. AA has the same problems, and then some, because it's intentionally keeping OTA design concepts.

You wanna see something that comes very close? Look at NanoBlobs. Look how I stripped out almost everything in 0.34b, except for the sounds and a few of the #Includes. The BOS files (which I was nice enough to include, with commented code) are my work, and 0.4 will feature even more revisions that will take it away from OTA structures, where the COB language's restrictions allow.

I am going to re-write the #Includes for the next version, and the sounds will all be legal, and then (assuming I had a willing audience that wanted to pay me) I could sell NanoBlobs. I won't be, of course, but that's not the point. Re-writing the #Includes isn't terribly hard- most of them are entirely optional anyhow, or could be rebuilt in a different way with minimal effort. It's been good training, though, and perhaps my next project will be designed as something that could be sold, if the content-protection schema ever exists that would allow me to protect my work.

[Das Bruce]

We need a new scripting language.

[Argh]

No, we don't. There is nothing wrong with BOS. What we need is a better environment to work with content in, and I've already discussed that, at length, in Development, and Zaphod has that somewhere on his incredibly long list of priorities... somewhere.

[smoth]

correct a new scripting language will not change much. However, people blatantly copying code should stop at least people wanting to gpl thier stuff. However, if the mod maker has no declared such a desire(I.E. Fang) this should not be imposed on them.

I can say the reason I want to move away from ota stuff is that ONE DAY the ota content will not be included with spring. At that time my mod would be broken. So I choose to move away from that.

Also I was wondering when argh was going to step up also. I know it sounds hoaky and I don't know the details but Xect vs mynn has a shady history. It is vexing that people ignore the developers right here on the forum who are not shady. I mean, christ I have a pink pig as my avatar! Something which I am reminded of weekly.

[SpikedHelmet]

She's more of a peachy colour... though her dress us pink.

[FoeOfTheBee]

I have confirmed that Xect and Mynn scripts are original. So it is, I believe, 100% legal, and the only legal mod at this point.

[smoth]

actually my mod is quite legal it is fan art. However, it is not legal to sell it or to gpl it because I do not own rights to gundam stuff. When the mod is done I will ask bandai for permsision to release it as something to be put with spring on the intent of promoting the sale of gundam.

[Neddie]

actually my mod is quite legal it is fan art.

Let us not get into the massive legal quagmire that is fanart/fanfic, please.

[Das Bruce]

actually my mod is quite legal it is fan art.

Let us not get into the massive legal quagmire that is fanart/fanfic, please.

I don't see how they could shut down spring, the engine project, because of somebody elses content.

[smoth]

actually my mod is quite legal it is fan art.

Let us not get into the massive legal quagmire that is fanart/fanfic, please.

let's not forget the massive dojin industry. Also do not insult me by comparing my mod with the travesty that is fanfiction. I don't care what you say. i have put more work into my mod then some half baked hack writer.

[SpikedHelmet]

i have put more work into my mod then some half baked hack writer.

Probably not.

[smoth]

i have put more work into my mod then some half baked hack writer.

Probably not.

The hell ever, I don't know where you get on YOUR horse but I have spent a year plus making this mod. Most people that write fanfictions spend about a week on it. Some of them spend months however, that is still not near a year plus.

[Neddie]

Didn't I try to avert discussion of this, people? Let the record show that I tried to avert possible discussion of this.

let's not forget the massive dojin industry.

Different cultures treat fan creations differently. In Japan, they are often considered free publicity, and few people begrudge a dojin or two here and there. In the United States, they are commonly regarded as an assault upon Copyright, Intellectual Property, and All That Is Holy.

Probably not.

Smoth has put a lot of effort into this mod, that is primarily why it... I don't know... works. The proof is in the pudding.

Also do not insult me by comparing my mod with the travesty that is fanfiction. I don't care what you say. i have put more work into my mod then some half baked hack writer.

I did not mean to cause offense. That said, not all fanfic writers are hack artists- nor are all works of fanfiction short, crappy smut-runs. While Smoth's generalization stands for roughly sixty percent of the fanfiction community, it is not comprehensive and thus should be dismissed.

I don't see how they could shut down spring, the engine project, because of somebody elses content.

This is a very interesting point. From a legal standpoint, as it is derivative, it could in theory be ripe for lawsuit. However, such an possibility is unlikely, and as Spring is refined it becomes less and less feasible. Evetually, it should not be a concern at all.

[smoth]

I did not mean to cause offense. That said, not all fanfic writers are hack artists- nor are all works of fanfiction short, crappy smut-runs. While Smoth's generalization stands for roughly sixty percent of the fanfiction community, it is not comprehensive and thus should be dismissed.

Maybe. I have not read a fanfic in around 9 years. At that time I had read enough of them to make me sick of the crap. Perhaps things have changed.

[Tired]

People are typing "sue" in here like it's the end of the world, but not every copyright/patent suit ends in the copyright/patent holder forcing the seller to cease distribution. They could if they wanted to, but that wouldn't get them anything - the code's so outdated now that its only value to Atari is sentimental. Even should Atari (or whoever holds the rights to TA these days) sue and force a cease and desist on sales, the damages that they could recover would probably be limited to the value of their code to the work (a % of net, after production and distribution costs are deducted), and, as someone's mentioned, the art is the bulk of the development cost in these games.

If they sued and did not force a cease and desist, then Spring designers or whoever selling the product could continue selling it, either paying a royalty fee to the rights holder per unit sold, or some flat fee (decided at trial or in a meeting between - ick - expensive lawyers).

The likelihood of a suit is almost directly proportional to the profitability of the product, though. If the product has no particular value (selling a few hundred copies on Ebay falls into this category), then the rights holder, if they ever found out, would send a cease and desist letter (request), but not sue due to the obscene costs of retaining council (and if Atari has copyright lawyers salaried, I for one would be shocked). If the request was ignored, then a court injunction could stop distribution, but no damages would be awarded.

The real question is whether or not the Spring designers think that Spring's worth any more than this. If so, how much more? How valuable is the product presently (how many copies can you sell, and at what profit per copy sold)? If they really believe that there's an extensive market, then for maybe $3,000 in legal fees and whatever number Atari makes up ($20,000 just for a blind guess), Spring could likely buy at least licensed use of the TA game engine and scripts/whatever for Spring. For that matter, TA's been out of production and off of store shelves for long enough now that they might bloody well sell the rights for TA distribution on top of that (or maybe not - large corporations are as unpredictable as they are dense in these things; speaking from personal experience in purchasing rights to US distribution of a product from a mammoth Canadian corporation, I can attest that the sons of bitches can take one full fecking year or more to just get a bloody signature on something that's already been agreed upon in every other sense).

To me at least, it seems that Spring's not built for first world mainstream sale - Supreme Commander would nail that coffin shut (unless it's a monumental disappointment, which I can't see community modders allowing). Unless the plan's to sell a downloadable copy or something for $5 a pop, which'd make it cheap enough to be viable, and anyone plans on setting up a massive hosting system through one of the current multi-player networks or something, anyway. Sounds to me like you modders are spending too much time compufigurating or whatever the feth it is you do and need help making rent this month. =P

Bottom line - by the book for massive sales is such a fecking monumental hassle anyway that anyone with the talent and the time for such an approach would probably be better off pulling an SJ and going to work for an existing firm. If you wanna sell things on Ebay just for some quick cash, don't bloody well tell anyone about it, as onna the disillusioned kiddies here will blow the whistle on ya. As a final option, sell it on Ebay under a User Agreement that establishes ~clearly~ that you must own a copy of TA to play (last valued at $5 for the game and all expansions at Walmart circa 2001), and tell Atari that you're only selling the additional Spring elements (this, of course, would work entirely on the honor system - much as the free version does now - and would have like 5 people buying in that actually owned TA, but that'd be Atari's problem). Hell if I know if that'd work or not, but *see appendix A on profitability.

If ya'll need money that badly, then ask for donations for development and just don't make the download or playing the game contingent upon it. I'd send in $5. Atari could sue for that too, but they'd be outta their flippin' minds to try it. =P Talking about marketing a fecking fan game. What's the world coming to these days? *Grumble grumble grumble....*

P.S. Stevie, you are one stoner lookin' bastid. ~~

[Torrasque]

If we could buy the materials (not the license) wich have not more real value, how would that cost?
(Surely Atari will not sell it...in fact, I'm sure they will not bother with us at all )

(I would agree to pay 50$ to have Spring distribued freely, and I'm certainly not the only one. it's like buying it, but for a good cause)

[smokingwreckage]

So, we need a library of "free" sounds, a library of "free" scripts, and a library of "free" textures. The more "free" mods get made, the closer we'll be!

[Tim Blokdijk]

You have some nice points Tired, I'm going to reply in parts.

People are typing "sue" in here like it's the end of the world, but not every copyright/patent suit ends in the copyright/patent holder forcing the seller to cease distribution. They could if they wanted to, but that wouldn't get them anything - the code's so outdated now that its only value to Atari is sentimental. ...

From Atari's perspective the content itself has only sentimental value.
But the TA content is far from sentimental to Spring, most mods still make havy use of it.

The point is not about the damages that they could recover.
Spring is a fun hobby project at this moment but once this project starts to cut into Atari market share they will act to there best intrests.

...
If they sued and did not force a cease and desist, then Spring designers or whoever selling the product could continue selling it, either paying a royalty fee to the rights holder per unit sold, or some flat fee (decided at trial or in a meeting between - ick - expensive lawyers).

I don't like the idea of Atari lawyers that might decided not to CaD and then having to work out (posebly in a trial) royalty deals for conent in an open source project.
It's not going to work.

...
Spring could likely buy at least licensed use of the TA game engine and scripts/whatever for Spring. For that matter, TA's been out of production and off of store shelves for long enough now that they might bloody well sell the rights for TA distribution on top of that ...

We could try to buy the license, but we need several things for that.
- Cash (As long as the price is not to high we can try to get donations for something like this.).
- A foundation to transfer the rights to. (Can be done)
- Alternatives (legal mods) as you can't get f*cked over if you have alternatives.
- Someone willing to do the long negotiation procces with Atari.

(That is, if they think it's worthwile to talk to us)

...
To me at least, it seems that Spring's not built for first world mainstream sale - Supreme Commander would nail that coffin shut (unless it's a monumental disappointment, which I can't see community modders allowing). ...

Spring is build for the open source market.
And just like SupCom can dominate the mainstream sale market, Spring can dominate the open source market.

...
Bottom line - by the book for massive sales is such a fecking monumental hassle anyway that anyone with the talent and the time for such an approach would probably be better off pulling an SJ and going to work for an existing firm. ...

Ahh, you underestimate the power of having a good time.

[Tired]

The points that I was making were only pertinent in the event that people wanted to sell Spring / mods for Spring as opposed to keeping it free. For purely open source purposes, the only truly safe ground would be to remake Spring from scratch using entirely original content (engine/scripting) and readapting mods from that base. Once again, though, Atari will probably only ever care if it cuts into what they see as their consumer base - primarily the US. and Canada, parts of Western Europe, and select Southeast Asian countries. All of that's stuff that people (primarily Smoth) have been arguing over for a coon's age here, though, and which no one here seems qualified to definitively answer. (I have two cousins who're copyright lawyers, and make $300 and $400/hour respectively, btw).

For a purely open source game that's noticably successful to survive, you'll either need purely original code, or copied code that no one ever finds, for my $0.02. Like, whatever~

[SwiftSpear]

Tired: mod projects get foxed all the time. We wouldn't likely have any real recourse if atari did apply a ceise and desist, we'd have to comply to thier terms, and thier terms could be shutting down spring perminently.

True we may have legal grounds, but because there is no mentionalbe money at all in this project we can't really explore them.