Kixxe, much of what you said is already the case, plus some things you missed. Many people complain about massed plasma bots when rocket units have AOE and can fire over eachother and obstacles. Not only this, but higher level rocket units knock smaller units around, making it more difficult for the small units to fire back. Laser and flamer units rip apart whatever they get in range of, plasma and cannon units are your basic combat units: good damage against a single target at the longest direct-fire range of all the level 1 units.
I disagree somewhat with Argh's statement that the units don't differ between tech levels. While the level two units are essentially stronger versions of the previous level's units, they allow for a much greater concentration of firepower, as well as having more range and allowing for more powerful airdrops. At level 3, however, this changes. The level 3 GD units especially are geared toward super assault; most of their firepower is directed forward. The level 3 URC units are more like what he says though, but they rip apart anything lower than them.
Perhaps the problem is more that level 2 units are not enough more powerful than level 1 units. I know that I normally don't normally build many level 2 units other than constructors and artillery, which means that something is probably wrong.
Expand & Exterminate .155 Released!
Moderator: Moderators
Point of disagreement - this isn't the case. If it were, in OTA-type mods like AA, porcing in your base and using MMs to build a massive assault force would be viable. It's not on most maps because Mexes and Moho Mexes are much more efficient sources of resources. And most AA games I've played on open maps (like Comet Catcher) focused on metal patches - either denying them to your enemy through raids or siezing them for yourself through all-out assaults.TradeMark wrote:When metal makers are allowed, the gameplay changes dramatically, like, you dont need to fight for mexes anymore.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Large hump to get a factory up? What are you talking about dude?
Your economy is only crippled if you don't expand, hence the name expand & exterminate. Argh, ya darn nub, the adv mexes take 500 energy to operate and run.
I think you are playing the wrong version argh. The lv1 turrets were given significantly more range and the lv2 &lv3 turrets health were nearly doubled.
Dude, I dunno what mod you're playing, but normally within 10 - 20 minutes I have an income of 60+ metal and several thousnd energy. I dunno what the hell you're doing, but you definately aren't playing correctly.
Meaningful? THink OUTSIDE the TA box damnit! This is not TA, stop trying to make everything comperable to TA, because this is completely different. Try using bombardment arty for GD, try airdropping flamers in your opponents base, TRY using the fing stealth/cloaked mech's that urc has at level 2. TRY not playing it as if it was ota!
USE TACTICS!
No use going lv 2? How about a main battle tank that has a heavier cannon and miniguns on the sides, how about using the ION tanks that shoot THROUGH units ro paralyze them. Try using Bombardment arty. How about the lv 2 laser tank (which does not fire short bursts moron, they fire continually, how about another reactor) which does an ungodly amount of damage.
If youa re URC, try using the CANNON MECHS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE AT LV1. How about the STEALTH AND CLOAKED mechs that you can use to infiltrates someone's base.
Try using the armed mexes for gd and the CLOAKED AND JAMMED mexes that urc has.
Lv 3, How about nuke arty? How about tac nukes? How about the massive defense structures which put the beatdown on any force.
FFS you don't know what you're talking about. If you did know what the hell you were talking about I minght listen, but you don't, so I won't.
Your economy is only crippled if you don't expand, hence the name expand & exterminate. Argh, ya darn nub, the adv mexes take 500 energy to operate and run.
I think you are playing the wrong version argh. The lv1 turrets were given significantly more range and the lv2 &lv3 turrets health were nearly doubled.
Dude, I dunno what mod you're playing, but normally within 10 - 20 minutes I have an income of 60+ metal and several thousnd energy. I dunno what the hell you're doing, but you definately aren't playing correctly.
Meaningful? THink OUTSIDE the TA box damnit! This is not TA, stop trying to make everything comperable to TA, because this is completely different. Try using bombardment arty for GD, try airdropping flamers in your opponents base, TRY using the fing stealth/cloaked mech's that urc has at level 2. TRY not playing it as if it was ota!
USE TACTICS!
No use going lv 2? How about a main battle tank that has a heavier cannon and miniguns on the sides, how about using the ION tanks that shoot THROUGH units ro paralyze them. Try using Bombardment arty. How about the lv 2 laser tank (which does not fire short bursts moron, they fire continually, how about another reactor) which does an ungodly amount of damage.
If youa re URC, try using the CANNON MECHS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE AT LV1. How about the STEALTH AND CLOAKED mechs that you can use to infiltrates someone's base.
Try using the armed mexes for gd and the CLOAKED AND JAMMED mexes that urc has.
Lv 3, How about nuke arty? How about tac nukes? How about the massive defense structures which put the beatdown on any force.
FFS you don't know what you're talking about. If you did know what the hell you were talking about I minght listen, but you don't, so I won't.
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
I have a prime example of why metal makers are needed. IN this game *finds replay* We lost the middle at the begining. With less metal, We were unable to take it back, So we couldn't defend as well, so we lost more mexxes... And the cycle repeats.
Also, Level 1 mobile artillery is too good. 3 GD light artillery shelled a couple of bases, Guarded by defenders and A morter turret into the ground:
Damn. FU won't upload it. This is so suck...
Also, Level 1 mobile artillery is too good. 3 GD light artillery shelled a couple of bases, Guarded by defenders and A morter turret into the ground:
Damn. FU won't upload it. This is so suck...
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
Metalmakers will not be needed if you make the mexes stronger and thus the defense easier. Also, Decimator mentioned to include better but energy consuming mexes for each level.
That would actually not promote more defensive play, scince all the ressources and time you spent for more energy, before harvesting additional metal, will be turned into firepower by your opponent.
The only way to make actual base-to-base combat viable in this game, is to make defending easier on the econ. and give more value to single spots than having the most spots.
I am convinced that it is indeed possible to strike a balance, where it will be of actual importance to take the most spots, yet the player who is initialy on the defense will still have options, plus entrenched bases will be useful, even without MMs.
MMs only enable you to fully play the game when dug-in, without MMs but better Mexes and more metal from teh Comm, you will be able to dig in, but if you wait to long, will lose still.
And that is what E&E is about i think, aggressive gameplay. Its just a little over done right now, at least from an old players point of view.
From a new players point of view, this mod requires too much skill right now. One mistake, and you lose the match. Every unit counts, each decision will kill you or make you win.
That is interesting gameplay if you are experienced, but doesnt allow for any mistakes.
And sadly leads to much swearing in public team games.
ps.: i have this strange feeling in my gut that level 1 air is still grossly OP, why do the darn scouts have to be armed ? they are too cheap for being an aerial attack unit.
That would actually not promote more defensive play, scince all the ressources and time you spent for more energy, before harvesting additional metal, will be turned into firepower by your opponent.
The only way to make actual base-to-base combat viable in this game, is to make defending easier on the econ. and give more value to single spots than having the most spots.
I am convinced that it is indeed possible to strike a balance, where it will be of actual importance to take the most spots, yet the player who is initialy on the defense will still have options, plus entrenched bases will be useful, even without MMs.
MMs only enable you to fully play the game when dug-in, without MMs but better Mexes and more metal from teh Comm, you will be able to dig in, but if you wait to long, will lose still.
And that is what E&E is about i think, aggressive gameplay. Its just a little over done right now, at least from an old players point of view.
From a new players point of view, this mod requires too much skill right now. One mistake, and you lose the match. Every unit counts, each decision will kill you or make you win.
That is interesting gameplay if you are experienced, but doesnt allow for any mistakes.
And sadly leads to much swearing in public team games.
ps.: i have this strange feeling in my gut that level 1 air is still grossly OP, why do the darn scouts have to be armed ? they are too cheap for being an aerial attack unit.
More metal from the comm encourages porcing, no thanks.
Stronger mexes reduce the effectiveness of raiding even further discouraging smaller attacks to kill the economy, leading to porcing, no thanks.
EXPENSIVE mexes that provide more metal are a good idea (higher tech mexes should take increasingly longer to pay themselves off), they make players choose if they want guns or butter, leading to strategic variety.
And mistakes dont cost you the match. Being a bad player does. I have come back from losing most of my forces by slowing the enemy down with strongpoints of a turret or two with a line of tanks and by reclaiming my way to into strenght. And if winning a battle confers no significant advantage theres no point win winning them. Losing players receive a swift ending anyways, unlike in other mods where it just takes ages to breakthru, delaying a guaranteed victory.
And metal makers are not the way forward, its just a whiny feeling we all get when theyre missing from our spring gameplay. A microed force can easily kill another 2-3x bigger. Do that a couple of times and you get your advantage back. Metal makers = porcing.
Now to the good bits:
Since you have to line your troops/turrets for them to be effective, flanking works WONDERS! Its a really cool gameplay element and it works really good as well!
And please remove the metal bonus builders confer (except the comm)
Stronger mexes reduce the effectiveness of raiding even further discouraging smaller attacks to kill the economy, leading to porcing, no thanks.
EXPENSIVE mexes that provide more metal are a good idea (higher tech mexes should take increasingly longer to pay themselves off), they make players choose if they want guns or butter, leading to strategic variety.
And mistakes dont cost you the match. Being a bad player does. I have come back from losing most of my forces by slowing the enemy down with strongpoints of a turret or two with a line of tanks and by reclaiming my way to into strenght. And if winning a battle confers no significant advantage theres no point win winning them. Losing players receive a swift ending anyways, unlike in other mods where it just takes ages to breakthru, delaying a guaranteed victory.
And metal makers are not the way forward, its just a whiny feeling we all get when theyre missing from our spring gameplay. A microed force can easily kill another 2-3x bigger. Do that a couple of times and you get your advantage back. Metal makers = porcing.
Now to the good bits:
Since you have to line your troops/turrets for them to be effective, flanking works WONDERS! Its a really cool gameplay element and it works really good as well!
And please remove the metal bonus builders confer (except the comm)
Well, of course you can come-back. But if your enemy doesnt mirco, that is effectively a mistake, so he is a bad player.
I dont want an option to porc.
I want an option to not have the game decided during the first 20 minuts and during tech 1, which was the case in a great amount of games i played.
The only situation where the game would drag out longer where when the map was VERY hilly, so somebody PORCED, or when there was water in-between.
More expensive and better mexes will just drag the game, but not help unit or gameplay choice.
Stronger mexes for the same price is where it is at.
Make single spots more rewarding, make level 2 an option, include varring game-styles.
Make the game a bit more casual for newer players.
Not a whole lot, and not anywhere near AA, but a little bit, so games last longer than 20 minutes.
I dont want an option to porc.
I want an option to not have the game decided during the first 20 minuts and during tech 1, which was the case in a great amount of games i played.
The only situation where the game would drag out longer where when the map was VERY hilly, so somebody PORCED, or when there was water in-between.
More expensive and better mexes will just drag the game, but not help unit or gameplay choice.
Stronger mexes for the same price is where it is at.
Make single spots more rewarding, make level 2 an option, include varring game-styles.
Make the game a bit more casual for newer players.
Not a whole lot, and not anywhere near AA, but a little bit, so games last longer than 20 minutes.
Last edited by Andreask on 30 Apr 2006, 21:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
I agree 100%krogothe wrote:More metal from the comm encourages porcing, no thanks.
Stronger mexes reduce the effectiveness of raiding even further discouraging smaller attacks to kill the economy, leading to porcing, no thanks.
EXPENSIVE mexes that provide more metal are a good idea (higher tech mexes should take increasingly longer to pay themselves off), they make players choose if they want guns or butter, leading to strategic variety.
And mistakes dont cost you the match. Being a bad player does. I have come back from losing most of my forces by slowing the enemy down with strongpoints of a turret or two with a line of tanks and by reclaiming my way to into strenght. And if winning a battle confers no significant advantage theres no point win winning them. Losing players receive a swift ending anyways, unlike in other mods where it just takes ages to breakthru, delaying a guaranteed victory.
And metal makers are not the way forward, its just a whiny feeling we all get when theyre missing from our spring gameplay. A microed force can easily kill another 2-3x bigger. Do that a couple of times and you get your advantage back. Metal makers = porcing.
Now to the good bits:
Since you have to line your troops/turrets for them to be effective, flanking works WONDERS! Its a really cool gameplay element and it works really good as well!
And please remove the metal bonus builders confer (except the comm)
So, you think that micro alone will let you have the option of defensive play and reaching level 2 in this mod?Forboding Angel wrote:
I agree 100%
You must keep in mind that most players did not have a training of several weeks and in teams during the previous betas, and as scince teams are random on public servers, the differences in training will always be dramatic.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Ya I do. The difference in skill levels is true, however, the lv 1 defences have been given a great boost, so have the lv 2 and 3 defences.Andreask wrote:So, you think that micro alone will let you have the option of defensive play and reaching level 2 in this mod?Forboding Angel wrote:
I agree 100%
You must keep in mind that most players did not have a training of several weeks and in teams during the previous betas, and as scince teams are random on public servers, the differences in training will always be dramatic.
If you guys could upload your replays and let us see them it would be really helpful, cause honestly I don't understand why some of you guys are having such a hard time with teching. It makes no sense to me.
on TCP or other more restrained maps its insanely easy to put a couple of turrets down, wall them and just sit back and relax while you get to lvl2 in under 10 mins
Last edited by krogothe on 30 Apr 2006, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.