Lt.plasm bots need a slight tap with the nerfbat, they perform as well (if not better in some instances) as the light tanks, but are cheaper and smaller, and they have almost-allterrain movement.
Me and Folke have been playing EE almost nonstop since it came out, and plasma bot spamming saves the day everytime. Plasma hits hard on everything, it even rapes air.
Maybe just lower their range a bit so that tanks can hit them before they start the OMGPWN barrage, and add need for longer ranged rocket bots?
Still, I must say I love this mod alot. Great job!
Expand & Exterminate .155 Released!
Moderator: Moderators
Before I looked at your location, a lot of this post made no sense. You've confused your english affirmatives and negatives, which leads to self-contradictory sentences.Zenka wrote:My bad, but since there was reached an comclusion already, why still concider metal makers?Andreask wrote:I guess you did not read the previous posts.
anyway, The commander has a load of HP. Which is good, it should die easily. But your combat units always target the enemy commander if in range, ignoring everything else. And since the commander is such a dangerous object (having no weapons and all), the auto target is very annoying. You can use your comm to suck all damage towards him and save your other units.
For example, you've got a "should" where (I believe) you should have "shouldn't" or "should not," unless of course you really do think it should die easy, in which case you've confused the words "good" and "bad" - but I think the former error is easier to make.
We are considering a change in the plasma bots, as we have seen people soley use plasma which is not the point of this mod.Comp1337 wrote:Lt.plasm bots need a slight tap with the nerfbat, they perform as well (if not better in some instances) as the light tanks, but are cheaper and smaller, and they have almost-allterrain movement.
Me and Folke have been playing EE almost nonstop since it came out, and plasma bot spamming saves the day everytime. Plasma hits hard on everything, it even rapes air.
Maybe just lower their range a bit so that tanks can hit them before they start the OMGPWN barrage, and add need for longer ranged rocket bots?
Still, I must say I love this mod alot. Great job!
Maybe you should give the plasma weapons some inaccuracy against fast units?
A TargetMoveError anywhere between 0.1 (for weapons mounted on fast-moving units) to 0.3 (for on stationary turrets you just don't want to kill air) would be a big help, I think. You might try from 0.2-0.5 if you want to more strongly discourage its use as a do-all-end-all weapon, since this will make it have a reasonably hard time hitting anything that moves very fast.
I've only had one game so far, but the mod seems reasonably solid considering that this is the first release. I wish AA's initial (um... "recent", not the one from a year ago) Spring release was as smooth!
A TargetMoveError anywhere between 0.1 (for weapons mounted on fast-moving units) to 0.3 (for on stationary turrets you just don't want to kill air) would be a big help, I think. You might try from 0.2-0.5 if you want to more strongly discourage its use as a do-all-end-all weapon, since this will make it have a reasonably hard time hitting anything that moves very fast.
I've only had one game so far, but the mod seems reasonably solid considering that this is the first release. I wish AA's initial (um... "recent", not the one from a year ago) Spring release was as smooth!
You know, i think there should be more "diffrence" between units. Right now a single swarm of one unit used correcly is better then a mixed army used correcly. Plasma bots will kill flamers if they move away from them, and missile genarlly dosen't make as much damage as plasma witch makes my 10 plasma lined up more usefull then your 5 plasma 5 missile lined up. At chokes and huge hordes missile are great units, but stuff like that is what hinders this mod(atleast maps with many/strong chokes). Offcourse mixing units is better when defending, since your enemy is coming towards you. But a well used swarm of Plasma and artillery will kill most mixed armys any day of the week. (excluding air offcourse 
)
May i suggest that you change things like speed and turret rotation from unit to unit to?
For example, missile could be usefull since they can fire from protection, works great in unlined formations and can respond to threats quickly while plasma gotta rotate their turrets which take a small(but vital) amount of time. And that for example plasma rotates slower then Flamers (who could use a speed boost and a damage nerf?) so if i where to flank you with flamers... well, you get the point. (note: I know this dosen't make sense since their technically the same "chassi" but let's just say that the ligther armor or heavier turrest has this and that effect on that and this aspekets of the unit.)
I think much of what i said is alredy implented, but it should be more visibole in larger scale. Just make the diversity of the units err... stronger, or something.
Just IMHP... >.>
Note: This is currently written at 1:05 in the night where i went up at 9, so please excuse me in the morning if i'm compltely out of my mind and starts ramblling about the crazy fdacts of randomness which comsumes our universe know as cheese. Please also excuse my spelling, but i'm not up for tresure hunting in my vast sea of bookmarks to find my spellchecker. No, i don't need tips for a spellchecker. Thank you and goodnight. *sleeps*
)May i suggest that you change things like speed and turret rotation from unit to unit to?
For example, missile could be usefull since they can fire from protection, works great in unlined formations and can respond to threats quickly while plasma gotta rotate their turrets which take a small(but vital) amount of time. And that for example plasma rotates slower then Flamers (who could use a speed boost and a damage nerf?) so if i where to flank you with flamers... well, you get the point. (note: I know this dosen't make sense since their technically the same "chassi" but let's just say that the ligther armor or heavier turrest has this and that effect on that and this aspekets of the unit.)
I think much of what i said is alredy implented, but it should be more visibole in larger scale. Just make the diversity of the units err... stronger, or something.
Just IMHP... >.>
Note: This is currently written at 1:05 in the night where i went up at 9, so please excuse me in the morning if i'm compltely out of my mind and starts ramblling about the crazy fdacts of randomness which comsumes our universe know as cheese. Please also excuse my spelling, but i'm not up for tresure hunting in my vast sea of bookmarks to find my spellchecker. No, i don't need tips for a spellchecker. Thank you and goodnight. *sleeps*
Plasmas get eaten alive by tanks, every time, everywhere. Their only advantage is allterrain.Comp1337 wrote:Lt.plasm bots need a slight tap with the nerfbat, they perform as well (if not better in some instances) as the light tanks, but are cheaper and smaller, and they have almost-allterrain movement.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Bull. If you line up your units they are fully effectivekrogothe wrote:Plasmas get eaten alive by tanks, every time, everywhere. Their only advantage is allterrain.Comp1337 wrote:Lt.plasm bots need a slight tap with the nerfbat, they perform as well (if not better in some instances) as the light tanks, but are cheaper and smaller, and they have almost-allterrain movement.
maybe I should post a replay to illistrate.
the thing is that plasmas are much easier to line up because of their smaller footprint. My tanks get stuck on eachother when they try to line up.krogothe wrote:Plasmas get eaten alive by tanks, every time, everywhere. Their only advantage is allterrain.Comp1337 wrote:Lt.plasm bots need a slight tap with the nerfbat, they perform as well (if not better in some instances) as the light tanks, but are cheaper and smaller, and they have almost-allterrain movement.
HAIL GD!
All right, I've played it. Here's a detailed review. This is just my opinion- and it's definately not personal. If I didn't think that E&E was worth reviewing at this stage, I wouldn't have bothered. So please look on this as a critique from a fellow game-designer- better yet, one who doesn't design "normal" games or seek popularity for its own sake, because quite frankly it's boring to me. And fans... please, keep your comments reasonable. Critique is critique- and when I give critique, it's going to be pretty strong stuff.
The Good:
E&E has some very strong points as a mod, and I should bring them up immediately, so that everybody understands that while this review hits on some the less-polished areas of the mod, I'm not here to trash it.
Firstly, the units are very nicely done, in terms of their animations and overall character, and have a definate feeling of side. While I personally think that they need a lot more work from an aesthetics standpoint (more about this later on), the URC and GD are both clearly differentiated from one another- not a small achievement. This goes hand-in-hand with the weapons in the mod, which are also very clearly differentiated, both in terms of visual effect and the sound effects (which are very nice).
Secondly, the mod is OTA-like, but succeeds in not just being a clone. This was a tricky bit to pull off, given that the metal-extractor / energy production parts of the economy, and the use of multiple "levels" of factory was preserved.
Thirdly, there are some very nice scripted effects on some of the units. I particularily appreciated the "damage sparks" from factories taking damage, and the great care invested in making the explosions unique and spectacular.
****************************
All of these things said, this mod has a long way to go, before I'd want to play it on anything but a testing basis, and has serious problems with its game design that should be fixed. Maybe your audience doesn't care- and maybe you don't, either. I can't claim to be master of the popular mod, myself- I make ruthlessly balanced things that aren't newbie friendly and require a lot of skill to play. But I think this could be a very cool game, if you guys avoid a lot of the pitfalls you're in right now.
The short version: it's really boring. I found gameplay very one-dimensional, and it really needs a lot've tweaking to get to the level of AA. After playing it with AAI for a bit, I've identified a lot of the things that are making it boring:
1. Each level of tech is basically just a bigger, badder clone of the previous one. After looking through the weapon stats, I was kind've... appalled to see that there's so little differentiation between the tech levels.
2. Defenses are useless, period. Whoever argues otherwise is completely wrong. The only "defense" worth building are the special weapons from the Heavy Construction Vehicle of each side, which are (like the nuke, Bert/Tim from OTA) really offensive weapons, not defenses.
"But wait, you say- defenses have weapons that are as good as the level of attackers, if not a little better".
Um... newbies, go read the actual stats, and you will see immediately that something is seriously awry. A GD LLT has 625 hitpoints... a Light Laser Vehicle has 700. Ok, ok, so a Light Laser does slightly less damage per second to the Defense than it does to its fellow vehicles. But, on a kill-per-kill basis, the Light Laser Vehicle wins. Period.
Guess what, game designers? This is bad game design, pure and simple. Basic rule of RTS game design #12727812: "Defensive structures should always be more cost effective than offenses". This is because because it's realistic, and because defenses cannot move, which is a huge, not-so-hidden cost. A defensive turret is never, EVER going to go take your opponant's base, k? That fact alone should mean that either it is signficantly cheaper... or significantly more powerful... than mobile units, which can be concentrated at will. Oh, and don't forget the hidden cost imposed by making a builder unit have to go to that location and build the sucker, either- a huge cost in terms of time, which, as any decent RTS player will tell you, is one of the most important costs, ever.
To my mind, there is zero reason to build static defenses, period.
More importantly...
3. The economies of both sides are horribly crippled and make zero sense.
Let's see... first, we have the fact that it costs a very large "hump" to get just a Level One unit factory up, but the builder it can produce is of zero interest, from an economic standpoint, other than giving your Commander a second pair of hands. I haven't done all the math yet, and probably won't bother, as this is a very new design and y'all will keep tweaking, but so far as I can tell... both sides have a huge waiting period before they can actually afford any armies, period. Which sucks. In OTA, I could have early rushes out in 2 minutes or so, if I kept them very small, and my economy wasn't crippled by it. In E&E, it requires 3 metal extractors and two energy makers to not go into stall while making units to attack- which, depending on the map, may put your Commander quite aways from the starting base. So far as I can tell, you should just build your first factory nearest the third mex, to save time, instead of building a base. In fact... there simply aren't any good reasons to build a base, period.
If you wanted to have a game that was not about building bases, why bother with fixed defenses or the walls, mines, and dragon's teeth? Think about it. Heck, even NanoBlobs allows and encourages a certain amount of base-building before going into all-out war mode. I have to figure this was an accident, not a purposeful choice...
Second off, there is this horrible, jagged area where you can build Advanced Mexes, but are suddenly out of energy. C'mon, guys- this is like being dropped off a cliff, and about as fun. Again... OTA was really cool, because it had multiple ways to get to the same ends. You could gamble on wind, go heavy on energy and metal makers, or stake out the map with mexxes. In E&E, there are multiple points where you simply cannot feed your economy on anything like a reasonable basis... unless you're the guy who Zerg rushed first, and are sitting a vehicle on all of the nearest metal spots to your opponant's base.
This isn't cool. The design robs people of meaningful choices. Look... when I made NanoBlobs, I made one kind of resource-maker- Sheep. They're simple, and if you want more resources, you just make more of 'em. Want to protect them? Move them around. In OTA, you'd do roughly the same thing by visiting a pond and putting MMs in it, or other tactics to distribute risk. In E&E, you don't have those choices. It's like you learned from NanoBlobs, but failed to understand it- NanoBlobs is a game design where you cannot porc, like E&E... but you CAN DISTRIBUTE RISK, because you can move your Lord and Sheep around... and good players do so. E&E needs this, badly, or it's never going to be any fun, on maps that aren't perfectly symnetrical... and even then, it's going to go to the guy who clicks the fastest.
4. Because the economies are horribly crippled, there are no static defenses worth building unless your opponant is brain-dead, and there's no way to distribute economic risk... I'd have to say that, in the final analysis, that anybody who wants to own people should just figure out which units win on a cost-basis on the ground (again, when you figure in hit/miss ratios, the answer will surprise you), and then build the fastest Zerg Rush economy possible, spam out a few dozen Level One units... and win. I do not think there's any chance that anybody with real skill is going to allow their opponant to reach Tech Level Two, on a competition-grade map, period. Let alone higher tech levels. Which brings me to my second to last point...
5. If there's no real point to a second tech level, why bother? Ok, so this is half in jest- you're trying to make a big, multifaceted mod that can be taken seriously by the OTA crowd here. But, really, what I'm trying to say is that the large number of tech levels is pretty irrelevant... and even if the econonomic problems were fixed, you guys need to make each tech level different, not just "better". The Quad Laser tank vs. the Light Laser Vehicle is a great example. More range? Nope(ok, 10 pixels- big fricking deal). A lot more damage? Nope (it's about double, all things factored in). Special armor-penetrating abilities against certain units? Nope. Other factors, like rate of fire, bursts, energy efficiency, etc.? Nope.
Needless to say, that's not terribly impressive. When the Quad Laser is a weapon that fires single, short bolts, has a different accuracy, looks different, and just happens to rip open vehicles that fire Rockets (giving the game design a much-needed amount of RPS), it'll be a much cooler game.
6. Last point, really, then I'm going to bed. As an artist... I find the texturing on the units to be really ... bad. For example, the GD tanks are all re-using the same dark forest-green camo pattern all over themselves, except for a few areas of metal and overwhelming amounts of teamcolor. While the units are nice, and the scripts are, for the most part, great (other than some walkers which are noticably "skating" due to moving faster than their walk animations- a minor flaw, to be sure), the texturing really needs a lot've work, even for a 3DO-based mod.
It makes zero sense to have gigantic gobs of bright team-color and then be worried about camoflauge for the parts that aren't BRIGHT BLUE. I'd have to suggest severely toning down the team-color... or just forgetting about "realistic camo", and using more interesting and varied choices. I can live with the visual similarities between units of various tech levels- while it's kind've silly for a cannon-toting mech to look anything like a laser-toting one, given that IRL they'd be built around entirely different engineering considerations... it reminds me of the crazy built-up M113's from Vietnam... some with machineguns, some with rocket pods, miniguns, or even recoiless rifles.
But the overall aesthetic is very bland, and the aircraft, for both sides, just don't make much sense, visually. URC gets what look like futuristic spacecraft, that don't fit any of its other designs... and they move like gunships, which makes even less sense, visually. And GD gets helicopters, which make even less sense, because anybody who's not living under a rock knows that helicopters aren't exactly used to kill other aircraft... or as bombers. Really, the aircraft need to make some visual sense- right now, they feel like you ripped them from UnitUniverse (which, so far as I can tell, is where the originals of most of these units came from, before being extensively modified) but didn't really think about them very much as units in a supposedly futuristic world of conquest.
Overall... this mod has a lot of potential, but it's not really top-shelf stuff yet. Hopefully, as you get things smoothed out, a lot've these issues will disappear, and I wish you guys the best of luck... but for now, I'd honestly rather play something without so many obvious problems. Being in the middle of game-balancing for yet another release of NanoBlobs (which was supposed to be a quickie project, but keeps getting added to, because it's never quite done to my satisfaction) I know that a lot of these things just reflect that you're just getting started, so I will come back after a release or two and see how things are going.
The Good:
E&E has some very strong points as a mod, and I should bring them up immediately, so that everybody understands that while this review hits on some the less-polished areas of the mod, I'm not here to trash it.
Firstly, the units are very nicely done, in terms of their animations and overall character, and have a definate feeling of side. While I personally think that they need a lot more work from an aesthetics standpoint (more about this later on), the URC and GD are both clearly differentiated from one another- not a small achievement. This goes hand-in-hand with the weapons in the mod, which are also very clearly differentiated, both in terms of visual effect and the sound effects (which are very nice).
Secondly, the mod is OTA-like, but succeeds in not just being a clone. This was a tricky bit to pull off, given that the metal-extractor / energy production parts of the economy, and the use of multiple "levels" of factory was preserved.
Thirdly, there are some very nice scripted effects on some of the units. I particularily appreciated the "damage sparks" from factories taking damage, and the great care invested in making the explosions unique and spectacular.
****************************
All of these things said, this mod has a long way to go, before I'd want to play it on anything but a testing basis, and has serious problems with its game design that should be fixed. Maybe your audience doesn't care- and maybe you don't, either. I can't claim to be master of the popular mod, myself- I make ruthlessly balanced things that aren't newbie friendly and require a lot of skill to play. But I think this could be a very cool game, if you guys avoid a lot of the pitfalls you're in right now.
The short version: it's really boring. I found gameplay very one-dimensional, and it really needs a lot've tweaking to get to the level of AA. After playing it with AAI for a bit, I've identified a lot of the things that are making it boring:
1. Each level of tech is basically just a bigger, badder clone of the previous one. After looking through the weapon stats, I was kind've... appalled to see that there's so little differentiation between the tech levels.
2. Defenses are useless, period. Whoever argues otherwise is completely wrong. The only "defense" worth building are the special weapons from the Heavy Construction Vehicle of each side, which are (like the nuke, Bert/Tim from OTA) really offensive weapons, not defenses.
"But wait, you say- defenses have weapons that are as good as the level of attackers, if not a little better".
Um... newbies, go read the actual stats, and you will see immediately that something is seriously awry. A GD LLT has 625 hitpoints... a Light Laser Vehicle has 700. Ok, ok, so a Light Laser does slightly less damage per second to the Defense than it does to its fellow vehicles. But, on a kill-per-kill basis, the Light Laser Vehicle wins. Period.
Guess what, game designers? This is bad game design, pure and simple. Basic rule of RTS game design #12727812: "Defensive structures should always be more cost effective than offenses". This is because because it's realistic, and because defenses cannot move, which is a huge, not-so-hidden cost. A defensive turret is never, EVER going to go take your opponant's base, k? That fact alone should mean that either it is signficantly cheaper... or significantly more powerful... than mobile units, which can be concentrated at will. Oh, and don't forget the hidden cost imposed by making a builder unit have to go to that location and build the sucker, either- a huge cost in terms of time, which, as any decent RTS player will tell you, is one of the most important costs, ever.
To my mind, there is zero reason to build static defenses, period.
More importantly...
3. The economies of both sides are horribly crippled and make zero sense.
Let's see... first, we have the fact that it costs a very large "hump" to get just a Level One unit factory up, but the builder it can produce is of zero interest, from an economic standpoint, other than giving your Commander a second pair of hands. I haven't done all the math yet, and probably won't bother, as this is a very new design and y'all will keep tweaking, but so far as I can tell... both sides have a huge waiting period before they can actually afford any armies, period. Which sucks. In OTA, I could have early rushes out in 2 minutes or so, if I kept them very small, and my economy wasn't crippled by it. In E&E, it requires 3 metal extractors and two energy makers to not go into stall while making units to attack- which, depending on the map, may put your Commander quite aways from the starting base. So far as I can tell, you should just build your first factory nearest the third mex, to save time, instead of building a base. In fact... there simply aren't any good reasons to build a base, period.
If you wanted to have a game that was not about building bases, why bother with fixed defenses or the walls, mines, and dragon's teeth? Think about it. Heck, even NanoBlobs allows and encourages a certain amount of base-building before going into all-out war mode. I have to figure this was an accident, not a purposeful choice...
Second off, there is this horrible, jagged area where you can build Advanced Mexes, but are suddenly out of energy. C'mon, guys- this is like being dropped off a cliff, and about as fun. Again... OTA was really cool, because it had multiple ways to get to the same ends. You could gamble on wind, go heavy on energy and metal makers, or stake out the map with mexxes. In E&E, there are multiple points where you simply cannot feed your economy on anything like a reasonable basis... unless you're the guy who Zerg rushed first, and are sitting a vehicle on all of the nearest metal spots to your opponant's base.
This isn't cool. The design robs people of meaningful choices. Look... when I made NanoBlobs, I made one kind of resource-maker- Sheep. They're simple, and if you want more resources, you just make more of 'em. Want to protect them? Move them around. In OTA, you'd do roughly the same thing by visiting a pond and putting MMs in it, or other tactics to distribute risk. In E&E, you don't have those choices. It's like you learned from NanoBlobs, but failed to understand it- NanoBlobs is a game design where you cannot porc, like E&E... but you CAN DISTRIBUTE RISK, because you can move your Lord and Sheep around... and good players do so. E&E needs this, badly, or it's never going to be any fun, on maps that aren't perfectly symnetrical... and even then, it's going to go to the guy who clicks the fastest.
4. Because the economies are horribly crippled, there are no static defenses worth building unless your opponant is brain-dead, and there's no way to distribute economic risk... I'd have to say that, in the final analysis, that anybody who wants to own people should just figure out which units win on a cost-basis on the ground (again, when you figure in hit/miss ratios, the answer will surprise you), and then build the fastest Zerg Rush economy possible, spam out a few dozen Level One units... and win. I do not think there's any chance that anybody with real skill is going to allow their opponant to reach Tech Level Two, on a competition-grade map, period. Let alone higher tech levels. Which brings me to my second to last point...
5. If there's no real point to a second tech level, why bother? Ok, so this is half in jest- you're trying to make a big, multifaceted mod that can be taken seriously by the OTA crowd here. But, really, what I'm trying to say is that the large number of tech levels is pretty irrelevant... and even if the econonomic problems were fixed, you guys need to make each tech level different, not just "better". The Quad Laser tank vs. the Light Laser Vehicle is a great example. More range? Nope(ok, 10 pixels- big fricking deal). A lot more damage? Nope (it's about double, all things factored in). Special armor-penetrating abilities against certain units? Nope. Other factors, like rate of fire, bursts, energy efficiency, etc.? Nope.
Needless to say, that's not terribly impressive. When the Quad Laser is a weapon that fires single, short bolts, has a different accuracy, looks different, and just happens to rip open vehicles that fire Rockets (giving the game design a much-needed amount of RPS), it'll be a much cooler game.
6. Last point, really, then I'm going to bed. As an artist... I find the texturing on the units to be really ... bad. For example, the GD tanks are all re-using the same dark forest-green camo pattern all over themselves, except for a few areas of metal and overwhelming amounts of teamcolor. While the units are nice, and the scripts are, for the most part, great (other than some walkers which are noticably "skating" due to moving faster than their walk animations- a minor flaw, to be sure), the texturing really needs a lot've work, even for a 3DO-based mod.
It makes zero sense to have gigantic gobs of bright team-color and then be worried about camoflauge for the parts that aren't BRIGHT BLUE. I'd have to suggest severely toning down the team-color... or just forgetting about "realistic camo", and using more interesting and varied choices. I can live with the visual similarities between units of various tech levels- while it's kind've silly for a cannon-toting mech to look anything like a laser-toting one, given that IRL they'd be built around entirely different engineering considerations... it reminds me of the crazy built-up M113's from Vietnam... some with machineguns, some with rocket pods, miniguns, or even recoiless rifles.
But the overall aesthetic is very bland, and the aircraft, for both sides, just don't make much sense, visually. URC gets what look like futuristic spacecraft, that don't fit any of its other designs... and they move like gunships, which makes even less sense, visually. And GD gets helicopters, which make even less sense, because anybody who's not living under a rock knows that helicopters aren't exactly used to kill other aircraft... or as bombers. Really, the aircraft need to make some visual sense- right now, they feel like you ripped them from UnitUniverse (which, so far as I can tell, is where the originals of most of these units came from, before being extensively modified) but didn't really think about them very much as units in a supposedly futuristic world of conquest.
Overall... this mod has a lot of potential, but it's not really top-shelf stuff yet. Hopefully, as you get things smoothed out, a lot've these issues will disappear, and I wish you guys the best of luck... but for now, I'd honestly rather play something without so many obvious problems. Being in the middle of game-balancing for yet another release of NanoBlobs (which was supposed to be a quickie project, but keeps getting added to, because it's never quite done to my satisfaction) I know that a lot of these things just reflect that you're just getting started, so I will come back after a release or two and see how things are going.
Argh, i agree with many of your observations.
But i wonder, what would be the alternative to the non-distributed economic-risk, leading to rush play as i posted in a previous post, if there arent any metal-makers or ressourece generators like sheep or MMs but its all spot based and supposed to stay this way.
Of course, the need for constant expansion makes bases redundant, but, Argh, i figure that this is rather the point of this mod, to keep you on the move.
Ok, so there is no frontline to assault, no territory to claim,making tech level redundant, and there wont ever be a frontline if Spot-taking is whats it about, unless you use a map with equal spots on both sides and a gap inbetween.
Is the only reasonable solution to introduce base-to-base combat the addition of metal-generators? It seems this way.
I mentioned during one of the games that is plays a lot like Warcraft 3, minus the heros. Actually, it is as fast paced as WC3, but in WC3 you still have more options because all units are truely unique and the option to tech up is actually viable.
Not so in E&E.
Well WC3 allows for different play-styles by making single ressource spots more valuable, thus more rewarding if you defend them.
You could do the same for E&E, have the mexes produce more M per any spot, but make them more expensive to build and harder to destroy, so that you gain an advantage in holding few spots and then building units, because every additional, expensive, long work time mex you build will leave you more vulnerable.
You would then automatically be forced to expand more conservatively, and scince your opponent will likely be forced to do the same, you can either try and rush with a few units fast, or tech up and dig in, while patroling the contested spots with fast units to threaten helpless builders that need to stay on each spot longer, thanks to a doubled work-time for the new mexes.
In order to enable a tech-up play-style or even an econ grab with these expensive mexes, artillery would have to be removed from the level 1 fac. Artillery is what totally kills any attempt to play something other than a rush, and artillery is cheap and early in this mod.
But i wonder, what would be the alternative to the non-distributed economic-risk, leading to rush play as i posted in a previous post, if there arent any metal-makers or ressourece generators like sheep or MMs but its all spot based and supposed to stay this way.
Of course, the need for constant expansion makes bases redundant, but, Argh, i figure that this is rather the point of this mod, to keep you on the move.
Ok, so there is no frontline to assault, no territory to claim,making tech level redundant, and there wont ever be a frontline if Spot-taking is whats it about, unless you use a map with equal spots on both sides and a gap inbetween.
Is the only reasonable solution to introduce base-to-base combat the addition of metal-generators? It seems this way.
I mentioned during one of the games that is plays a lot like Warcraft 3, minus the heros. Actually, it is as fast paced as WC3, but in WC3 you still have more options because all units are truely unique and the option to tech up is actually viable.
Not so in E&E.
Well WC3 allows for different play-styles by making single ressource spots more valuable, thus more rewarding if you defend them.
You could do the same for E&E, have the mexes produce more M per any spot, but make them more expensive to build and harder to destroy, so that you gain an advantage in holding few spots and then building units, because every additional, expensive, long work time mex you build will leave you more vulnerable.
You would then automatically be forced to expand more conservatively, and scince your opponent will likely be forced to do the same, you can either try and rush with a few units fast, or tech up and dig in, while patroling the contested spots with fast units to threaten helpless builders that need to stay on each spot longer, thanks to a doubled work-time for the new mexes.
In order to enable a tech-up play-style or even an econ grab with these expensive mexes, artillery would have to be removed from the level 1 fac. Artillery is what totally kills any attempt to play something other than a rush, and artillery is cheap and early in this mod.
omg, Andreask and I actually agreed on something. That has to be a first 
Actually... one good fix that I thought of, that'd keep the mod's heart and soul intact, but allow other play options, in terms of the economy (arguments about weapons and units I'll leave alone- I think that people either agree with my "not enough RPS to be interesting" premise... or don't).
1. Have a real, cost-effective upgrade for mexxes/energy generators for each tech level. So players can keep a few of them, upgrading like mad, and do the basic math on how many of everything they need to have to get to X level of production compared to a player doing a straight "lion" style game.
2. Put in some cheap, but weak "resource centers", that generate both M and E but not well (and at a time loss- don't forget that workertime + time for builders to arrive = real time spent not doing anything else). That will allow people to distribute risk... somewhat. Keep them watered down enough that they're mainly a tempting newbie trap, though- experts will only use them on large maps, where they can hide them and give them a porc against Air.
3. Either make static defenses worth somewhere between twice and three times what a mobile unit is, in terms of health, firepower, or in other ways (script events such as armor state, healtime buffs, lower cost of operation over time, etc.) .... or eliminate them.
Personally, I think that eliminating them entirely might be better for the mod, but I hate to advocate that modders throw away a lot've time spent making everything nifty for a niggling point of gameplay. Still- make a choice, and then stick to it. Leaving defenses in, but having them be worthless, may buff the mod's "unit count", but it really doesn't matter to players, except for newbies, who will draw the wrong conclusions and get owned because they tried to play conservatively. Having watched countless NanoBlobs newbies get owned because they can't get their minds wrapped around a game where porcing = death... if you go that route, be sure to explain it really well, or newbies will just play it once against people and never again.
Actually... one good fix that I thought of, that'd keep the mod's heart and soul intact, but allow other play options, in terms of the economy (arguments about weapons and units I'll leave alone- I think that people either agree with my "not enough RPS to be interesting" premise... or don't).
1. Have a real, cost-effective upgrade for mexxes/energy generators for each tech level. So players can keep a few of them, upgrading like mad, and do the basic math on how many of everything they need to have to get to X level of production compared to a player doing a straight "lion" style game.
2. Put in some cheap, but weak "resource centers", that generate both M and E but not well (and at a time loss- don't forget that workertime + time for builders to arrive = real time spent not doing anything else). That will allow people to distribute risk... somewhat. Keep them watered down enough that they're mainly a tempting newbie trap, though- experts will only use them on large maps, where they can hide them and give them a porc against Air.
3. Either make static defenses worth somewhere between twice and three times what a mobile unit is, in terms of health, firepower, or in other ways (script events such as armor state, healtime buffs, lower cost of operation over time, etc.) .... or eliminate them.
Personally, I think that eliminating them entirely might be better for the mod, but I hate to advocate that modders throw away a lot've time spent making everything nifty for a niggling point of gameplay. Still- make a choice, and then stick to it. Leaving defenses in, but having them be worthless, may buff the mod's "unit count", but it really doesn't matter to players, except for newbies, who will draw the wrong conclusions and get owned because they tried to play conservatively. Having watched countless NanoBlobs newbies get owned because they can't get their minds wrapped around a game where porcing = death... if you go that route, be sure to explain it really well, or newbies will just play it once against people and never again.
No, no, no, not metal makers. But if we really need them, they should cost like 1000M and produce 1M...
When metal makers are allowed, the gameplay changes dramatically, like, you dont need to fight for mexes anymore. And then it is not anymore: "expand & exterminate", it becomes as: "make metal & rush with tons of metal & build tons of defense & lagg a lot" ...
Metal makers spoils the game... I highly disagree for adding them. But if they are really gonna be added, then they should produce max 1 metal, NO MOHO METAL MAKERS, they spoilt the OTA too.
I think it would be better to increase the moho mex making more metal, or adding moho moho mex :P
Btw, you can still make light construction mechs, which produces 0.5M
When metal makers are allowed, the gameplay changes dramatically, like, you dont need to fight for mexes anymore. And then it is not anymore: "expand & exterminate", it becomes as: "make metal & rush with tons of metal & build tons of defense & lagg a lot" ...
Metal makers spoils the game... I highly disagree for adding them. But if they are really gonna be added, then they should produce max 1 metal, NO MOHO METAL MAKERS, they spoilt the OTA too.
I think it would be better to increase the moho mex making more metal, or adding moho moho mex :P
Btw, you can still make light construction mechs, which produces 0.5M
Tanks can be lined up too, albeit with more difficultyForboding Angel wrote:Bull. If you line up your units they are fully effectivekrogothe wrote:Plasmas get eaten alive by tanks, every time, everywhere. Their only advantage is allterrain.Comp1337 wrote:Lt.plasm bots need a slight tap with the nerfbat, they perform as well (if not better in some instances) as the light tanks, but are cheaper and smaller, and they have almost-allterrain movement.
maybe I should post a replay to illistrate.
I like the idea of making mexes stronger to promote taking and holding. Also, as an addition to this, there could be a better mex available in addition to the standard one at each tech level which would use considerably more energy to run, but give more metal than you would be able to get otherwise at that tech level.Andreask wrote:Well WC3 allows for different play-styles by making single ressource spots more valuable, thus more rewarding if you defend them.
You could do the same for E&E, have the mexes produce more M per any spot, but make them more expensive to build and harder to destroy, so that you gain an advantage in holding few spots and then building units, because every additional, expensive, long work time mex you build will leave you more vulnerable.
You would then automatically be forced to expand more conservatively, and scince your opponent will likely be forced to do the same, you can either try and rush with a few units fast, or tech up and dig in, while patroling the contested spots with fast units to threaten helpless builders that need to stay on each spot longer, thanks to a doubled work-time for the new mexes.
An addition to this could be to allow mexes to build weak turrets around them, mingun turrets for GD, plasma turrets for URC.(NI mexes will get more advanced construction abilities.) This would continue to differentiate the sides, as URC covert mexes would hide what they are building, while GD armed mexes would defend what they are building.
I disagree with removing lvl1 artillery. However, they could be gimped so they are more innacurate and do less damage, which should accomplish the same thing, but would provide a player the option if they absolutely have to crack that position.Andreask wrote:In order to enable a tech-up play-style or even an econ grab with these expensive mexes, artillery would have to be removed from the level 1 fac. Artillery is what totally kills any attempt to play something other than a rush, and artillery is cheap and early in this mod.
I've played a few game, and I liked them very much !
Having no metal maker is a good point ihmo, but I must agree that the begining a a bit slow.
I didnt found the commander very valuable, could it be possible to make it generate more metal and energy, it could solve :
1. having a faster start, so you can start directily with a lab a make a rush
2. People said that without metal maker, you loose when you loose a metal extractor. So with a commander who give more metal, the loss of an extractor is less crucial. And at late game, when you own 50% of the map, it's not +5 metal wich will screw the gameplay.
If you even ever think about adding metal maker, please make them very fragile and having a big explosion, so you can't farm them.
Having no metal maker is a good point ihmo, but I must agree that the begining a a bit slow.
I didnt found the commander very valuable, could it be possible to make it generate more metal and energy, it could solve :
1. having a faster start, so you can start directily with a lab a make a rush
2. People said that without metal maker, you loose when you loose a metal extractor. So with a commander who give more metal, the loss of an extractor is less crucial. And at late game, when you own 50% of the map, it's not +5 metal wich will screw the gameplay.
If you even ever think about adding metal maker, please make them very fragile and having a big explosion, so you can't farm them.