A zero-sum mod would be interesting.
What is a zero-sum mod? The basic concept is that resources (metal/energy) are neither created nor destroyed. This means that:
1) All resources are present in the players' stockpiles, in on-map features, and in the form of the players' commanders at the begining of the game. There are no units or structures that produce resources.
2) All wreckages can be reclaimed for exactly the cost to build the wrecked unit. Wreckages do not degrade. All units can be reclaimed for 100% of their cost as well.
What sort of game does this make? Hopefully a more fluid, tactical mod. No more blind pushes of masses of units, because you will give your opponent a lot of metal. The game will be centered around killing more of your opponent's units - or rather, killing more resources' worth of your opponent's units - than you lose. If a pitched battle happens and there are lots of corpses to be reclaimed, each side might put more and more into securing the area and its vital resources.
This would also make for more opportunities for different tactics. A guerilla/hit-and-run strategy might work well, as you destroy isolated enemy units and reclaim their resources to build more of your own units.
I think it would be very interesting to see AA adapted to be a zero-sum mod. With Caydr's permission and interest from others, I might consider doing so.
What do you think?
Zero-Sum AA
Moderator: Moderators
I like how TA and Spring allow for nearly limitless expansion, unlike all those so called RTS where ressources eventually run out. I find it interesting how the games has many levels:
1) one mexx and two solar are very valuable
2) getting a geo up is difficult but rewarding
3) having to stop every other construction to finish the first fusion
4) spamming mmm and fusion by the dozen
5) having to self D every lowly units to free more ID for krogoth, fusions, MMM, and adv builders
Your idea is interesting, but I don't feel that turning an epic, large scale, RTS into a limited tactical game would be an improvment.
Another thing to consider is that nearly all maps are made with metal patches but nearly none with metallic features.
Still, it could be interesting to try this new and different gameplay, but should try on a small mods, with few units, and not on an OTAish mod, and neither on a mod with hundreds of units like AA.
Hey Gnome, any plan to port BattleTanx TA (the only zero-sum TA mod I know (actually, it's negative sum, as metal can be lost but not created)) to Spring?
1) one mexx and two solar are very valuable
2) getting a geo up is difficult but rewarding
3) having to stop every other construction to finish the first fusion
4) spamming mmm and fusion by the dozen
5) having to self D every lowly units to free more ID for krogoth, fusions, MMM, and adv builders
Your idea is interesting, but I don't feel that turning an epic, large scale, RTS into a limited tactical game would be an improvment.
Another thing to consider is that nearly all maps are made with metal patches but nearly none with metallic features.
Still, it could be interesting to try this new and different gameplay, but should try on a small mods, with few units, and not on an OTAish mod, and neither on a mod with hundreds of units like AA.
Hey Gnome, any plan to port BattleTanx TA (the only zero-sum TA mod I know (actually, it's negative sum, as metal can be lost but not created)) to Spring?
Nice idea.
You might think about zero-suming metal and leaving energy as is, it'll cut down on your work load to not have to modify all the weapons that use energy to fire, units that use energy to move, cloaking energy, ect.
Also, it seems like storage capacity might become an issue- you'll have metal "loss" if you reclaim more than you can store.
Aircraft deaths will also bleed resources out of the system, wouldn't it? Or do crashing aircraft leave wreckage now?
Repairs, too, seem like they would be lost resources, of course you could always set it so that repairs just take energy if you leave energy as is.
Then again, you could build the mod to deliberately be negative-sum where over time the resource constraints get tighter. If you make the resource spiral slow enough it'll create a cool effect of the planet getting consumed, which very much matches with the original plot of TA. Individual units will get more and more valuable as the match gets into the endgame, which I suspect will cause a transition at some point every match from TA style mass gameplay to a more traditional elite unit micomanagement.
Imagine controlling the last few heavy tanks on the map, and your opponent has to either let you chip away there base slowly, or reclaim something to produce a new attack force. It's the painful command decision that are the interesting ones, after all.
You might think about zero-suming metal and leaving energy as is, it'll cut down on your work load to not have to modify all the weapons that use energy to fire, units that use energy to move, cloaking energy, ect.
Also, it seems like storage capacity might become an issue- you'll have metal "loss" if you reclaim more than you can store.
Aircraft deaths will also bleed resources out of the system, wouldn't it? Or do crashing aircraft leave wreckage now?
Repairs, too, seem like they would be lost resources, of course you could always set it so that repairs just take energy if you leave energy as is.
Then again, you could build the mod to deliberately be negative-sum where over time the resource constraints get tighter. If you make the resource spiral slow enough it'll create a cool effect of the planet getting consumed, which very much matches with the original plot of TA. Individual units will get more and more valuable as the match gets into the endgame, which I suspect will cause a transition at some point every match from TA style mass gameplay to a more traditional elite unit micomanagement.
Imagine controlling the last few heavy tanks on the map, and your opponent has to either let you chip away there base slowly, or reclaim something to produce a new attack force. It's the painful command decision that are the interesting ones, after all.
This could be done rather simply by just editing the corpse .tdf files to give the exact metal value of the unit, and making them indestructable.
And just commenting out all the resource structures in the sidedata, and cutting out the resource production of the comms.
I'd be interested to see how something of this nature plays with, say, A&A <_<
And just commenting out all the resource structures in the sidedata, and cutting out the resource production of the comms.
I'd be interested to see how something of this nature plays with, say, A&A <_<
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
No worries. If I were to design it, defensive structures would be quite resource-consuming.Targon wrote:I played a game sort of like this called sacrifice, it would degrade to everyone camping at their bases waiting until the other guy attacked. the defender would always have the advantage so they would win the resources until they had everything and the other guy had nothing and then gg
It would probably be best to have energy as the current system; after all, you have limitless energy from the sun, nuclear fission, wind, etc. but only have limited resources. Metal would be the zero-summed factor.
Of course, aircraft would be a problem. As would dgun and units exploding rather than leaving corpses... but I think a gradual but definite resource constriction as the game goes on would be a gameplay positive. As long as it doesn't encourage ultra-defensive gameplay.
Basically, I love TA-style gameplay and resources to death (hence why I am here). However, it would be nice to get a refresher from the "I just sent 50 thuds at you and they all died... oh well, doesn't affect me at all!" syndrome. In otherwords, this would be a mod without unit spam of any sort.
Note that I'm not proposing an ultra-small-scale mod with the players controlling 10 units per side. In fact, I think setting it up so that players can build "TA-sized" armies with a 10k/10k start would enhance the gameplay greatly, as it introduces an operational and strategic element to the game.
It's not just defensive structures, though. In any case, this is going to be true, unless your opponent's spread out his army too much. If you attack and he sits tight, he's going to be able to outnumber you. Raiding also gets discouraged, unless you can hit and run away with impunity.Felix the Cat wrote:No worries. If I were to design it, defensive structures would be quite resource-consuming.
Make sure that some type of area of effect weapon is available and effective. That way a player has to balance between bunching up and being vulnerable to the area of effectt weapon, or spreading out and being vulnerable to swarming. Then you need to be able to scout cheaply and get an idea where/how to attack to do the most damage. Also long range weapons that can attack from outside LOS encourage scouting and attacking before you get killed.
For example squad of thud vs squad of thud - advantage with defender, as he can camp on a hill and wait for the attacker to come to him and be mown down. Even on flat ground you can make sure you have a nice defensive line which is likely to have an advantage against an attacking group moving in a couple units at a time.
Second example, Fighter + Bertha vs Fighter + Bertha - whoever gets out there and finds the other Bertha first will win.
For example squad of thud vs squad of thud - advantage with defender, as he can camp on a hill and wait for the attacker to come to him and be mown down. Even on flat ground you can make sure you have a nice defensive line which is likely to have an advantage against an attacking group moving in a couple units at a time.
Second example, Fighter + Bertha vs Fighter + Bertha - whoever gets out there and finds the other Bertha first will win.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Of course, defensiveness is slightly discouraged by two facts:
1) You must kill your enemy to win.
2) The mod will be set up so that the usual porcer's way of winning - sitting there and building multiple Berthas, nukes, and level 3 units - is impossible, even with a 10k/10k start. There simply won't be enough resources per side for porc.
1) You must kill your enemy to win.
2) The mod will be set up so that the usual porcer's way of winning - sitting there and building multiple Berthas, nukes, and level 3 units - is impossible, even with a 10k/10k start. There simply won't be enough resources per side for porc.
Felix you just dont get it.
If there is no resources out in the map why the hell would i expand? all i'd do is weaken and deconcentrate my forces. If i were to attack and destroy 2/3 of your army with 1/2 of mine you would have the resources if you were defending and could reclaim them easy.
trust me if this were the case attacking would be extremely over-rated.
If there is no resources out in the map why the hell would i expand? all i'd do is weaken and deconcentrate my forces. If i were to attack and destroy 2/3 of your army with 1/2 of mine you would have the resources if you were defending and could reclaim them easy.
trust me if this were the case attacking would be extremely over-rated.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
If you don't leave the place where you started, how do you propose to win the game?Min3mat wrote:Felix you just dont get it.
If there is no resources out in the map why the hell would i expand? all i'd do is weaken and deconcentrate my forces. If i were to attack and destroy 2/3 of your army with 1/2 of mine you would have the resources if you were defending and could reclaim them easy.
trust me if this were the case attacking would be extremely over-rated.
I think this idea has great potential, but also great opportunity for failure if it's done wrong.
Some things to consider:
- Defender will have a significant advantage because the corpses will be near/in his base. Solution: Allow all combat units to reclaim corpses.
- Massed defenses make a single failed attack game-breaking because getting to the resources to reclaim and try again becomes impossible. Solution: Either no defenses or really low damage output defenses.
- There should definitely be a very powerful area of effect weapon for dealing with massing being the only viable strategy.
I have alot of ideas for something like this. For example, what if there were no buildings at all, but instead, you had construction units and combat units. The construction units build the combat units, and the combat units fight and reclaim. The construction units would be slow but tough and when dead, the player would effectively lose.
I would be interested in helping out with this project if it is ever seriously pursued. I do 3d modelling, texturing, I can do scripting and/or unit design, pretty much whatever needs doing.
Some things to consider:
- Defender will have a significant advantage because the corpses will be near/in his base. Solution: Allow all combat units to reclaim corpses.
- Massed defenses make a single failed attack game-breaking because getting to the resources to reclaim and try again becomes impossible. Solution: Either no defenses or really low damage output defenses.
- There should definitely be a very powerful area of effect weapon for dealing with massing being the only viable strategy.
I have alot of ideas for something like this. For example, what if there were no buildings at all, but instead, you had construction units and combat units. The construction units build the combat units, and the combat units fight and reclaim. The construction units would be slow but tough and when dead, the player would effectively lose.
I would be interested in helping out with this project if it is ever seriously pursued. I do 3d modelling, texturing, I can do scripting and/or unit design, pretty much whatever needs doing.