A Modest Proposal.

A Modest Proposal.

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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Argh
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A Modest Proposal.

Post by Argh »

I have looked at the issue of making a whole new, GPL-compliant texture set for the use of the entire Spring community.

I think that it is entirely possible to arrive at 100% legal textures that are beautiful, useful, and do not suck. All I need is for some folks to help me out here- I am not willing to do everything myself, as I am not ever going to use 3DO ever again, and this effort would primarily help mods that are trying to achieve GPL-friendly status. This is mainly for the older mods, that really need a beauty upgrade, but cannot be easily converted over to S3O. Anybody with painting skills, please help, and we can get this done in a week or two at most!

We can have 256 square textures at 128/128, in sets of 16, to allow for a huge variety of textures. We can also have specialized sets that are 64/128 that are meant for specific uses, such as treads for tanks, etc., and if an artist completes a nicely-made 4-block of 64/64 textures that still play nicely with the rest of the set, then we can use them. However, I do not want to see anything smaller than 64/64 or larger than 128/128, and only complete sets will be accepted- don't send me a singleton, ok?

I am willing to begin working on this, but I want help and some support. I need help with three major areas:

1. Anybody who would be willing to complete sets that total 128/2048 pixels, that are beautiful and fit a "set", would be contributing to the effort. To maintain quality standards, here are the requirements for submitted work:

A. Use a light angle of 120 degrees (this is the Photoshop default). This will ensure that things like drop-shadows, bevels, etc. all match exactly, which is important for quality assurance.

B. If you're going to submit a set here, use JPEG at maximum quality. Otherwise, email the set to me.

C. Sets are specified below, follow the guidelines to give us things that are high quality and fit the set theme.

D. Test any textures that may be used for mating surfaces to make sure that they tile correctly. It is better to have square textures with nice borders that will look good tiled next to each other than to have textures that will only tile with another specific texture, or tile with themselves, but nothing else. See my samples from the Olive Drab set to see how I used a very simplistic bevel to make a nice neat border. There are lots of other valid approaches, but this is one of the easiest.

E. I am quality control. Period. Do not send me ripped-off tiling textures from some random Internet site and tell me it's a "set" because they're all vaguely brown. Do not tell me that you need texture Y just for your mod- that's why we're going to break the final collection up into 16 GAF files, and 16 UnitTextures/tatex directory-pointing SDZ files ... so that we can give you the ability to have a texture space of whatever arbitrary size you'd like for your project needs, by dropping whatever you don't use.

The idea here is for us to get to a higher level of quality, while giving modders a flexible route for specific needs, not to satisfy every possible "customer"- modularity and multiple-use is the ruling principle here.

Here is a basic example texture. I am working on the Olive Drab armor set today, and this is a good example of what we need:

Image

Note that it's nicely designed for tiling with others, has a bevelled edge, and is nicely generic, and isn't trying to steal the show with fancy detail- it has nice details, but is subtle. This is the kind of thing we need at least one or two of in every major armor set, so that modders have something generic to work with.

2. Here are my proposed sets. Because of the wide variety of possible Spring projects, we cannot possibly cover every possible piece of ground, but this will get close enough for most people's purposes.

Code: Select all

1 = Olive Drab Armor.  A generic set of armor tiles designed around Olive Drab.  Useful for all sorts of military and near-future mods.  Camoflauge and jungle variants might be nice, too.

2 = Tan Armor.  A generic set of tan/brown/black armor tiles designed around a shade of light tan.  Great for military mods, desert-warfare units and other things.
 
3 = Metallic Armor.  A set designed for OTA-like game designs where bare metal is often part of the artistic appeal.  Layered, riveted, welded- it doesn't matter, just sure it looks like realistic metal, whether shiny or rusted, with minimal greebles- these should not be attention-grabbers.  Make sure that they tile well and will play well with others.  Metallics should be TGA, to make use of the alpha and have proper reflectivity, since we do not have glowmaps.

4 = Black Armor.  A set designed for OTA-like game designs, or any game where you really need that evil color.  Do not use pure black as the starting color- use 010 010 010 please.  Keep brightly-colored greebles down to a minimum- people may be using this as an accent color, for stripes, etc.

5 = Winter Armor.  Whites, blotched armor with gray, or light blues.  Keep obvious smears/rust/splotches down- the objective here is give people generic things to work with.  This really needs to be a complete set, for best compatibility.

6 = Tiger-stripe camo.  Basically, I'm hoping to see some nicely-tiling yellow/black camoflauge here, so that OTA units can still have that particular Cavedog wrinkle.

7 = Gray armor.  From mods like SWTA to E&E, there is always a strong demand for the classic Star Wars look, with dull gray armor with lots of greebles.  I know I keep saying this over and over again, but make sure that the final result tiles well and has a strong border, so that you can mix it with other things.  Different shades of gray are entirely OK, just don't make the differences so wild that any two of them right next to each other look really horrible, k?

8 = Red / Blue-green armor.  These are two colors that many people like to use for stripes and extra details, but not as a main color for units.

9 = Brown / Blue armor.  Again, these are typically used for extra detail, or to accentuate a design.

10 = Logo armor.  This is a very tricky area, due to the limitations imposed on 3DO.  Basically, we need sets of 10, 32-pixel logo textures.  The bigger issue is that people should not be using Arm and Core symbols, period, so that this is legal under the GPL.  If people want to have a fight over what new symbols to use... do that elsewhere, please, and don't clutter up my thread ;)

11 = Glass.  From the simple-but-beautiful windowpane with a border and an alphamap to cut-blocks to mirror surfaces.  The trick here is in the alphas, and using good glass colors- blues and greens.  This may be a good area to make at least one 4-block of 64's, for small glass areas or random details, like colored lights on units, etc.

12 = Metallic Greebles A.  What would a futuristic mod be without all sorts of random metallic greebles?  Boring, of course.  Therefore, we need greebles, from gun-barrels, to hatches, to grates, etc.  Making random greebles in Photoshop isn't very hard, especially since everything will use the same light angle for things like bevels- the trick is coming up with various clever ways to border the tiles, so that some appear to be inset, and some appear to be surface details, etc., etc.  

13 = Metallic Greebles B.  More mechanical details, random computer-like circuitry, and other random-but-interesting bits and pieces that can be re-used in a variety of places and contexts.

14 = Non-Metallic Greebles A.  These are things like solar panels, pipes, yellow caution stripes, aircraft landing-pads, and all of the other random details that will be needed by a lot of mods.  It'd be nice to have a set of different-colored gradients using 32/32 squares here, too, for all of the uses people like gradients for, as well- remember, 16 32/32s can be put in the same texture space as 1 128/128, so that's a pretty nice set of gradients.

15 = Non-Metallic Greebles B.  More random detail textures.  It'd be nice to have some high and low detail stone walls, brick walls, etc., for doing buildings with, among other things, as well as futuristic stuff.

16 = The One-Off Bin.  This is for things that are useful, but are special-purpose or just plain unique.  A typical example would be a set of 64/64 plant-leaf textures that are designed with green on the r/l edges and fading in to lighter green stems/veins, etc. in the middles, carefully set up to tile vertically.  Or sets of 128/32 tank treads.  Etc., etc.- this is a grab-bag for those who're either too lazy/time-crunched to do more than a few textures, or for very specific planned uses that can get re-purposed by other people.
3. I would like somebody to take responsibility for creating the final set of 16 GAF files, watching over naming conventions, and finally creating the 16 resulting SDZ files. I'd rather spend my time painting and evaluating art- that's what I'm good at, and I'd rather not have to be a librarian at the same time. I realise this is a boring part of the job, but it needs to be done.

So... that's about it. If you want to help, just announce which set you're going to complete. When we get done with all of them, we'll make 16 GAFs, so that unit-makers have something that they can use to re-texture things in 3DO Builder with and set the texture names with, and the entire set of textures can become a standard part of Spring, or provided to the community as a GPL-friendly "download this first to use my mod" sort've thing. If enough people sit down and help, we could get this part of the conversion over to GPL done in a couple of weeks, easily, and then modders could begin converting things over to the new textures over the next month or two.
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

Olive Drab is very boring, so I've started with it. Here's what I have thus far:

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Warlord Zsinj
Imperial Winter Developer
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Post by Warlord Zsinj »

Shouldn't we be trying to make the leap to UVwrapping and texturing in that method, rather than perpetuating an outdated, and somewhat ugly means of texturing?

I mean, I know the Uvwrapping+skinning issue is holding a lot of mods back at the moment (SWTA not the least); but I think it is quite important that we make the jump eventually, as it will just skyrocket the quality of things in Spring. You simply cannot texture a 1000 poly unit using the OTA method, but Spring can run units with that many polies relatively easily.
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zwzsg
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Re: A Modest Proposal.

Post by zwzsg »

Argh wrote:B. If you're going to submit a set here, use JPEG at maximum quality. Otherwise, email the set to me.
I'd rather have texture in a lossless format.
Gnomre
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Post by Gnomre »

However, Zsinj, it *would* be handy to have some high resolution, free textures to be applied to UV maps for those of us who suck at creating things from scratch ;)
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Gnome wrote:However, Zsinj, it *would* be handy to have some high resolution, free textures to be applied to UV maps for those of us who suck at creating things from scratch ;)
From my experiance with texturing UV maps, tileable texture types like metal textures or woodgrain textures can be useful, but there isn't too often that you find a nice square box on your UV map where a armor plate texture would just fit in perfectly.

I think if this project can help E&E to build a mod that will one day be totally GPL then it's worth doing, although I do agree that in general it's best to work forward towards full s3o mod implimentation rather then use of the old format with new textures.
Gnomre
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Post by Gnomre »

Manipulation and deformation of a texture is easy enough for me, but I just can't work photoshop from scratch. That's just me, of course...
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

Basically, here's what I think, and why I bothered proposing this:

1. We're going to see a billion-and-one conversions using old OTA models from the billion-and-one third-party units out there. There are a lot of mods being built using all of this old content, and the main things keeping them from being GPL are the skins- the scripts would be legal, as well as the geometry, assuming the original creators don't mind having their creations used.

2. There are a lot've mods out there that would really benefit from having better textures than the OTA defaults. Look... put any OTA model next to one of the more detailed units from NanoBlobs, and then tell me there isn't a huge difference in quality. Ok, I used a weird style of art- no argument there, I was having fun with the whole thing- but that's really not relevant. Better textures, in 24-bit color, would make a pretty big difference in quality, and even somebody who doesn't know anything about 3D modeling could use the resulting GAFs and 3DOBuilder+ to convert over.

3. There are a lot of decent free texture packs out there, but they weren't specifically designed to address the needs of Spring mods. They're full of generic tilable textures that are great for uvmappers, but aren't great for anything that demands rectangles with bounded edges. These textures would have dual uses- tilable textures are always useful in uv-mapping- but would specifically address 3DO-based mods.

What I'd like to see here is some work from everybody with graphical talent. Thus far, I've finished enough squares that I could call Olive Drab "done", but I'm having fun tweaking it. C'mon, folks. We can do this together, as a collective- all it requires is that enough painters take about 3-5 hours and kick out a set of 16 128/128s for a set, or get fancy and build some in 128, some rectangles and a few smaller sizes. That's the key here- unlike the OTA GAFs, these would be organized very strictly into 128/2048 sections, so that content-producers knew exactly how much texture space they had to work with.

When we have enough textures done, I will build a demo showing what things can look like with better textures- I think that the results will really argue for all existing 3DO mods to get converted, aside from really specialized ones like Gundam or that WWII ship mod.

But I'm not exactly seeing a flood of textures coming my way, here- I guess this idea is a little too big for people to get their heads wrapped around. I'm not willing to do all of this by myself, considering that I am one of the few who is a really proficient uvmapper and modder, so if I'm tilting at windmills I'll probably just post the rest of Olive Drab and move on :-P
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Drone_Fragger
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Post by Drone_Fragger »

My mod is going to have UV mapped Textures. BUt I can't do UV mapping to save my life, So most likely it'll all be the same texture.

Luckily I can give a rather Valid reason and Get away with that becuase of the theme of my mod :D
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FoeOfTheBee
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Post by FoeOfTheBee »

Xect Vs. Mynn textures should be legal to use, don't know if they are what you're looking for though.

http://www.ta-spring.com/mods/xectvsmynn/
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

Thank you very much, I will include them in the project, once I have reviewed them :-)
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Maelstrom
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Post by Maelstrom »

I would be happy to be the 'librarian', and organise the textures. Just Email/MSN/PM me the approved textures, a category if its obvious, and ill dump them in the relevant places, including renaming them.

Why use jpgs? Png's are by default lossless, and supports 32-bit alpha channels. They have a similar size to jpg's as well. Plus, the Spring engine can read them, so no conversion is necessary.
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Caydr
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Re: A Modest Proposal.

Post by Caydr »

zwzsg wrote:
Argh wrote:B. If you're going to submit a set here, use JPEG at maximum quality. Otherwise, email the set to me.
I'd rather have texture in a lossless format.
A maximum quality jpg is damn near lossless. Compared with TIF or any other totally lossless format, it's a lot smaller too... no reason not to use it.
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Drone_Fragger
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Post by Drone_Fragger »

Yay! Caydrs back!

Now work on 1.45, Damn you! :P
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