^ agree
theres hardly any reason to build any other level1 vehicle at the moment (bar possibly janus tanks) as flash/insti's are so good
Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46
Moderator: Moderators
end of demo before game starts...DavetheBrave wrote:Something really needs to be done about the flash/instigators. Currently, It feels like OTA all over again. I think that putting beamers and hllts back in will help. Mohos also need a large boost imo..i dont think .35 will be enough. I think it needs to be .4 or even .45. The Lvl 2 rushing that was happening before was much more tolerable than the flash/insti rushing we have now imo.
If you dont believe me, watch this replay : http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2695 . It is not even flashes, instigators do the damage in this game. While GuiltySpark is a very good player, so is BigSteve, and I am not that bad myself. He owns the both of us(including our lvl 2 stuff) by sitting in his base spamming instigator tanks.
gators and flashes could do with a 10% cost increase though!
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DavetheBrave
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 22 Jun 2005, 02:52
This is the right replay - http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2696
Ill watch it!
Anyways, i did a test with con vehs, and YES, unfortunately they are over borderline exploitable! unless you are on a metal-rich map, they WILL boost your econ pretty hard at lvl2, and since they help you build faster they wont really handicap you much if you alternate cons and units!
Trust me guys, i did think it was a noob thing to nerf con vehs, but try TradeMark's challenge and youll see why lvl2 con vehs are even more effective than metal gens and therefore by far the best econ builder for low-metal maps! I tried it with kbots making conventional resource buildings and got a mere 60m, while spamming con vehs gave me 151m in 20 mins with 7 mex spots! a 30%-50% resource nerf is good measure!
Anyways, i did a test with con vehs, and YES, unfortunately they are over borderline exploitable! unless you are on a metal-rich map, they WILL boost your econ pretty hard at lvl2, and since they help you build faster they wont really handicap you much if you alternate cons and units!
Trust me guys, i did think it was a noob thing to nerf con vehs, but try TradeMark's challenge and youll see why lvl2 con vehs are even more effective than metal gens and therefore by far the best econ builder for low-metal maps! I tried it with kbots making conventional resource buildings and got a mere 60m, while spamming con vehs gave me 151m in 20 mins with 7 mex spots! a 30%-50% resource nerf is good measure!
flashes seem okay to me, at least arm vs arm.
Well placed LLTs do a good job of nailing flashes, but good unit control with the flashes makes the difference.
As for level 1 units..I build stumpies, januses, and shellshockers regularly and often. I use them as my level 1.5 units - after the initial flash rushing, but before the jump to level 2.
Yeah, perhaps a very small flash nerf is in order, but if so...very, very small. They're very nearly there right now, if not already good.
Well placed LLTs do a good job of nailing flashes, but good unit control with the flashes makes the difference.
As for level 1 units..I build stumpies, januses, and shellshockers regularly and often. I use them as my level 1.5 units - after the initial flash rushing, but before the jump to level 2.
Yeah, perhaps a very small flash nerf is in order, but if so...very, very small. They're very nearly there right now, if not already good.
once again, i still think con bots dont need any nerfing, in 20 minutes you had 151 metal income,.... how many con bots did you have?
seriously, you did a test game, good job, was there someone actually pushing your economy forcing you to build military units?
a test game is useless for testing if something is overpowered with economy.
Once again Nerf them or dont nerf them, it wont matter since, you will die if you do this strategy vs a rusher.
this almost seems like when the new version of AA came out and people were still trying to rush to lvl 2 before 10 minutes in. and in the process completely destroying there chances at holding off someone that stayed lvl 1.
lvl 1 units will break you open on an open map, unless your playing on some kind of turtling map that has 1 access point to your base, that you can turret up heavily, and block raiders with your coms dgun, then maybe you might survive. but your still gonna have NO map control for most of the game. i just really see no possibility in this strategy being "overpowered"
AND after typing all this arguement for not nerfing this strategy and thinking of the responses, i am going to take the easy way out and say the following.
I lean toward min3mat, just do it and let the noobs have there way.
seriously, you did a test game, good job, was there someone actually pushing your economy forcing you to build military units?
a test game is useless for testing if something is overpowered with economy.
Once again Nerf them or dont nerf them, it wont matter since, you will die if you do this strategy vs a rusher.
this almost seems like when the new version of AA came out and people were still trying to rush to lvl 2 before 10 minutes in. and in the process completely destroying there chances at holding off someone that stayed lvl 1.
lvl 1 units will break you open on an open map, unless your playing on some kind of turtling map that has 1 access point to your base, that you can turret up heavily, and block raiders with your coms dgun, then maybe you might survive. but your still gonna have NO map control for most of the game. i just really see no possibility in this strategy being "overpowered"
AND after typing all this arguement for not nerfing this strategy and thinking of the responses, i am going to take the easy way out and say the following.
I lean toward min3mat, just do it and let the noobs have there way.
Why? You build L1 economy as usual. When you switch to L2 economy, whenever that is, you use Advanced Construction Vehicles and Moho Metal Makers instead of Fusion plants and Moho Metal Makers. Why do Fusions work against a rusher and ACVs not? Remember, in your answer, that the ACV guy is building his combat units faster, is increasing his economy faster, and is paying off his economy investment faster.Journier wrote:Once again Nerf them or dont nerf them, it wont matter since, you will die if you do this strategy vs a rusher.
There is also the problem that since fusions cost more and take longer to build for each unit than (say) ACV, the fusion-MMM player won't be getting anything at all until he finishes his first fusion - whereas the ACV player will be gradually gaining more resources and is able to immediately put them to use.
as long as this adv con vech spamming does no become main strategy for all good players i do not see a reason to change them.
Lets not change things BEFORE they becom real problem, it will only ruin this awsome game with so many options to win.
Leave adv cons veh as they are. (do not improve their speed for now)
Lets not change things BEFORE they becom real problem, it will only ruin this awsome game with so many options to win.
Leave adv cons veh as they are. (do not improve their speed for now)
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Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
I agree with the whole flashes/ gators thing, they've been a problem for such a long time, they need to be completely redifined.
All's fine if you build a few riot tanks but ltts just arent effective enough against flashes, a few ltts could stop say 20-30 peewees but never half the amount of flashes, which have prettymuch the same role, or atleast the same class.
Come to think of it, if you compare zippers to flashes the results would be even worse, and they're sposed to be lvl2 raiders.
All's fine if you build a few riot tanks but ltts just arent effective enough against flashes, a few ltts could stop say 20-30 peewees but never half the amount of flashes, which have prettymuch the same role, or atleast the same class.
Come to think of it, if you compare zippers to flashes the results would be even worse, and they're sposed to be lvl2 raiders.
http://www.savefile.com/files.php?fid=7200862
There is my replay, watch it and you'll see how fast my metal income is growing.
Edit: I tried without ACV spamming, and i got like +70M only, and thats half less. (i got +140M in 20mins with ACV spam).
There is my replay, watch it and you'll see how fast my metal income is growing.
Edit: I tried without ACV spamming, and i got like +70M only, and thats half less. (i got +140M in 20mins with ACV spam).
Guys watch the freaking replay, try to do better without ACVs, realize youre wrong and get over it!
OBIVIOUSLY the ACV strat wont be much good in a map like Comet Catcher or metal heck, just as fusions+MMMs wouldnt either! However, in any map with metal low enough to justify the building of fusions+MMMs (or if the game is late enough) you will be MILES better off by getting ACVs. You numbnuts seem to only be considering that strat on maps with loads of metal, forgetting the average springer plays on a wide variety, then you go a step further and call everyone who agrees with trade a noob, arguiing about map control (suggesting open maps) then ranting about how cons take up much space (suggesting ultra-cramped maps).
I know for sure that next time ill spam cons instead of fusions, and if you guys cant see a way to have a winning strategy out of that, your bad, because its been working for me!
If you have the cheek to call yourselves better than the "noobs" at least try thinking about it harder and maybe testing it out yourselves, isntead of assuming ACVs are the holy grail that are better than moho mexes and that spamming them is a good idea on ALL maps and that we are all waving our dicks around for no reason other than to annoy you.
Soon enough i can see more and more people using ACVs, so whatever happens it will eventually be changed anyways!
OBIVIOUSLY the ACV strat wont be much good in a map like Comet Catcher or metal heck, just as fusions+MMMs wouldnt either! However, in any map with metal low enough to justify the building of fusions+MMMs (or if the game is late enough) you will be MILES better off by getting ACVs. You numbnuts seem to only be considering that strat on maps with loads of metal, forgetting the average springer plays on a wide variety, then you go a step further and call everyone who agrees with trade a noob, arguiing about map control (suggesting open maps) then ranting about how cons take up much space (suggesting ultra-cramped maps).
I know for sure that next time ill spam cons instead of fusions, and if you guys cant see a way to have a winning strategy out of that, your bad, because its been working for me!
If you have the cheek to call yourselves better than the "noobs" at least try thinking about it harder and maybe testing it out yourselves, isntead of assuming ACVs are the holy grail that are better than moho mexes and that spamming them is a good idea on ALL maps and that we are all waving our dicks around for no reason other than to annoy you.
Soon enough i can see more and more people using ACVs, so whatever happens it will eventually be changed anyways!
this replay show that in non battle game this is ultimate strategy. Is there a game that show that one player beat other cause of ACV abuse?TradeMark wrote:http://www.savefile.com/files.php?fid=7200862
There is my replay, watch it and you'll see how fast my metal income is growing.
Edit: I tried without ACV spamming, and i got like +70M only, and thats half less. (i got +140M in 20mins with ACV spam).
Does it work on competetitve level (against noobs everything works ofcourse)? If no, dont change it.
I think someone has just thrown the toys out of his pramIf you have the cheek to call yourselves better than the "noobs" at least try thinking about it harder and maybe testing it out yourselves, isntead of assuming ACVs are the holy grail that are better than moho mexes and that spamming them is a good idea on ALL maps and that we are all waving our dicks around for no reason other than to annoy you.
calm it lad, no need to get mad about it, its only a game.
No one ever doubted the math, just wether this strat will work when your under pressure from attacking forces and hence, wether its worth the trouble for caydr to change.
In fact, I think things swing the other way, as the ACVs let you get your battle units out the door faster.Soulless1 wrote:surely if it's just plain better than fusion + MMM, there's no reason why this should be different in a battle situation...it's not like the fusions have guns all over them and the ACVs don't...
all u seem just to be full of theory. Now let me see some pro level games where u actually ABUSE ACV. (using it late game is not abusig imo, late game they come handy instead of MG's or fus/MMM)
When i make adv fac i want to get bulldog ASAP and not wasting valuable factory time to spam acv's. Bulldogs can end the game while acvs cant. U see huge diffirence here?
When i make adv fac i want to get bulldog ASAP and not wasting valuable factory time to spam acv's. Bulldogs can end the game while acvs cant. U see huge diffirence here?