Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46

[Egarwaen]

In pretty much all of the games Ive played this week against decent opponents Im 100% sure I would have lost if Id spent resources on con units rather than units.

But it's not cons rather than units. It's cons rather than level 2 resource structures.

Using det's numbers, you need 7 Adv. Con Vehicles to out-produce a Fusion + MMMs, and they'll pay for themselves faster. I'm pretty sure 7 ACVs can effectively guard a single level 2 vehicle plant. How much does that increase the factory's build time by?

[Argh]

All I'm going to say further on this topic is that I appreciate those who took the time to do the math... and I'd like to add the following, basic logic:

1. Level One con vehicles are also a net bargain, under certain conditions.
2. Both types of con vehicle can be put into Transports.
3. If you need me to draw the rest of this picture for you, you aren't qualified to offer your opinion on the topic of con vehicles and their true worth vs. costs.

At any rate, please don't take this personally, Caydr, no harm meant, and if it's not what your audience wants... well, you know them far better than I ever will. After the whole dustup about the anti-swarm stuff and the other semi-useless defenses, and the hostile comments offered after this last foray into the Land of the Obvious... I will leave y'all alone for a bit. I really enjoy your mod, despite it not being perfect (which, given the huge number of factors, is pretty unlikely to ever happen, but I really like that you're trying), and I look forward to your next creations

[Journier]

i really see no reason for peewees to get owned in this ? why are peewees getting dominated?

are they that overpowering?

[Soulless1]

they look cute when they explode en masse

[Journier]

hey caydr i just went over the change log 3x and did a cntrl + F on the page, and didnt see any Gauss cannon changes....

They are underpowered :/

[FireCrack]

The catupult seems to be bugged for me, whenever one fires i get errors about an invalid peice number for a flare and then loose sync with the server

[Doxs]

Like I said, any half decent player will crush you, building 1 level2 factory is hard enough, nevermind building another and spamming 500 m con units at the same time

In pretty much all of the games Ive played this week against decent opponents Im 100% sure I would have lost if Id spent resources on con units rather than units.
i suppose I could try and emp and then reclaim my enemies with my con army hehe

I just read my 2 previous posts, they seem a bit flamy, they arent meant to be my lighthearted tone doesn't come across in text

Steve, hes not telling you to build con units instead of military units.

What he is telling you is that spamming con units intead of going for the fusion/MM combo will be more effective.

[Andreask]

What i really wonder when reading this is:

Is going for Moho-Mines on Metalpatches that give 1.5 to a basic mex more effective than con-vehicles right now, taking into accoutn that the mines also need energy to operate? Also assuming that you have 3 to 6 patches available and secured for as long as necessary.

I wonder, is spamming con-vehicles the most efective econ, rly ? At least theoreticaly.

[Min3mat]

not space wise certainly and they will be a bitch to protect.
At Argh sticking them in hover/sea trans isnt a option on most maps as the cost of the extra plant is rather large and of no other use.
leave the cons as they are Caydr please otherwise early game will be ALL fucked up with stalls all around

[BigSteve]

But it's not cons rather than units. It's cons rather than level 2 resource structures.

Using det's numbers, you need 7 Adv. Con Vehicles to out-produce a Fusion + MMMs, and they'll pay for themselves faster. I'm pretty sure 7 ACVs can effectively guard a single level 2 vehicle plant. How much does that increase the factory's build time by?

My point is still that you cant spend all your metal on new factories and con units if you expect to beat a decent player, 7 cons plus 2 L2 factories = nearly 10000 metal, if your playing a decent player he will prob have a similar kind of income and so will have a similar amount of metal to play with... while your putting up fac 2 and making cons... what do you think hes doing with his metal? You cant defend yourself with cons or level2 resource structures!
Do I really need to go on? I cant see how building another factory will help atall if your opponent is on the ball, your screwed..

And to dox... I know what hes telling me smart arse... im telling you that this tactic cant work if you want to win a game,so whats the problem with the resources you get from cons? Making them is hardly gonna win you the game is it?

[Min3mat]

yay steve is on my side for once ^-^

[Egarwaen]

My point is still that you cant spend all your metal on new factories and con units if you expect to beat a decent player, 7 cons plus 2 L2 factories = nearly 10000 metal, if your playing a decent player he will prob have a similar kind of income and so will have a similar amount of metal to play with... while your putting up fac 2 and making cons... what do you think hes doing with his metal? You cant defend yourself with cons or level2 resource structures!

You don't need another factory. You build 7 adv con units. This gives you more metal income than a fusion + MMMs, pays for itself faster, and gives you 7 adv con units to help that factory build combat units faster. So you're equal up until you decide to tech to L2. He builds:

L2 Vehicle Factory
Adv Con Vehicle
Fusion
Moho Metal Makers
And is building combat units during the last two

You build:

L2 Vehicle Factory
7x Adv Con Vehicle
And then build combat units with the ACVs assiting, possibly alternating between combat units and more ACVs.

You will have a higher metal income and be building your units faster and will recover the cost of your resource producers (ACVs in your case, Fusion + MMMs in his case) faster.

[BigSteve]

Read FTW!!
Im not doubting or arguing with the math... I realise you'll get a better return from cons... until you get steamrollerd because thats all youve been building! I cant see how the tactic can work... thats why the cons dont need to be changed... thats the point ive made in all my posts... for the love of....

anyway we'll play a 1v1.. you spam your cons and I'll play like usual.. lets see who wins !!

What say ye?

[Chocapic]

I think the interesting point here is wether you should interval cons with attacking units wich gives you a disadvantage over normal econs of not being able to maintain both at the same time thus leading to a poor game output or wether you should spend the resources for the second plant giving you the ability to maintain both running at the same time.

Assuming that intervaling con's with attacking units is a game loosing aproach the only considerable aproach is 2 plants but a plant is of no low cost at early game and the resources spent on a new one my cost you the game.

Still con's for resources is an interesting thing to investigate deeply...

[Egarwaen]

Read FTW!!
Im not doubting or arguing with the math... I realise you'll get a better return from cons... until you get steamrollerd because thats all youve been building!

It's not all you've been building. You build seven. That's the equivalent of a fusion + MMMs. (If I understand det's numbers right) You then have those seven guard the factory and start pumping out combat units, throwing in another ACV every so often to keep building up your economy.

But I said that in my last post.

I think the interesting point here is wether you should interval cons with attacking units wich gives you a disadvantage over normal econs of not being able to maintain both at the same time

Why's it give you a disadvantage? Remember, with all the guards, you can churn out units very quickly. With seven ACVs guarding a Core level 2 vehicle factory, you get an ACV in 10 seconds and a Goliath in 17.5. Assuming that you're using the ACVs for L2 economy on top of a solid L1 economy...

[Archangel of Death]

All this debate about spamming acv's. Contemplating the issue is showing me far to many factors to calculate out. Costs, build times, space, the map's metal wind and geo availability, available nano lathe power, added construction of combat units/buildings, addition of a normal resource infrastructure at any of many points, potential damage from raiding parties of various sizes relative to game time and the previous two influences, what task(s) the commander is put on, whether or not those construction units are moving or not which causes them to use all the energy they produce. And that is just at level one.

Perhaps we should give it a little more time in the multi arena and see how effective it really is there.

[.funkymp]

ok

how about this - if people have the time

get some experienced players in aa game on say altored divide, then have them only follow certain paths for resources (i.e one goes the normal route, 1 goes for con vehicles/farks etc for resources etc) and just see what happens

agree with everything steve has said - BUT if you watch the replay i wacked up, look what trademark did - it worked superbly (about 10 mins i question him wtf he is doing i think ). the people we were against were like steve has said 'players who it wouldnt work against' - was actually expecting him to be steam rollered by mars - but mars never attacked him, but the difference in his eco compared to say mine or mars' energy wise was pretty substational for most of the game

yes i dont think it would work against some of the 'gosu' players - say heze, mat, guilty etc but against your average joe player its a possibility that spamming con vehicles out may actually work in improving your resources.

L2 Vehicle Factory
7x Adv Con Vehicle
And then build combat units with the ACVs assiting, possibly alternating between combat units and more ACVs.

someone should test that against

L2 Vehicle Factory
Adv Con Vehicle
Fusion
Moho Metal Makers
And is building combat units during the last two

because i think he may have a really valid point there

AOD made a good point - theres a lot of factors to this, basically i think it may just depend on the type of person your playing against whether its a good idea or not

[NOiZE]

or a player could just build another factory with constant pumping out ACV's requires less micro and pays off quicker the fusions/moho's

[det]

Moho mex is still a better investment than con vehicles.

A Moho Mex on a spot where a regular mex is +2.0 pays for itself in 118 ticks and then makes +5.8 Metal (adjusted from 6.0 for energy consumption).

Unless I am missing something, the order oh adv tech goes like this in effectiveness:

Moho Geo + Moho Metal Makers
Moho Metal Extractors
Adv Vehicle Con + Moho Metal Makers
Fusion + Moho Metal Makers

The Moho Geo + Moho Metal Makers is really insane though, it makes +21.5 metal for Arm.

One thing I haven't taken into consideration so far that could make a big difference and Adv Con Vehicles have a big advantage in is build time. If a unit is built faster, it starts paying back sooner. It hard hard to calculate this though and can probally be offset with a roaming pack of farks.

I really dont like that units produce any resources at all to be honest. It would be neat if your peewees couldnt move when you energy stalled :)

[NOiZE]

Removed double posts and post complaining about that