Thought it would be fun to have a thread to discuss units for AA.
To start I think light laser towers are one of the best units. Cheap enough to build everywhere, and great against rushes/raids or as support/delay while heavier mobile units can arrive on the scene to defend against a serious attack.
A unit I see very very rarely is the advanced brawler (blade I think). Last time I saw them used maybe half a dozen attacked an emplacement with 3 or 4 flak guns. They seemed to dissolve every bit as quickly as half a dozen brawlers would have.
Absolute annihilation unit tips/strategies/discussion
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smokeynseinor
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 21 Oct 2004, 12:19
I'm not sure what should happen to blades. I currently never build them because I think brawlers are better. Currently I can find only three main uses for air: scouting, defending against opponents air, and trying to catch the opponents of guard with massed air power and not enough anti air. Scouting = fighters or peepers. Defending against enemy air = fighters. Catching opponents of guard = brawlers as they are quicker to build and pack more a punch per metal spent I feel. In contrast level 1 air doesn't seem to pack enough punch to do worthwhile damage.
What should the purpose of the blade be? As a unit that is powerful enough to do significant damage even if the opponenet has anti air? Then it probably needs to do more damage or have more hitpoints. As a surprise raider? Then it needs to be cheaper and differentiated from brawlers somehow. Or maybe someone else has found a situation they are useful in?
Other unit musings: Atomic bombers can be powerful in late game. If you can build a huge economy and mass them up they are possibly the most mobile and concentrated form of firepower in the game. And they don't go down easy to anti air unless the opponenet builds more anti air than I normally seem to see.
Weasel - seems to be a mostly ignored unit. I was playing a one vs one game against a newbie and had control of 3/4 of the map and was ready to move in for the kill. He then sent something like 20 weasels against me. They surprised me by getting past 2 lines of llts and kbots and pretty much into line of sight of my factories before I stopped them. I thought there has got to be a bit of possibility in early weasel rushes, but so far haven't been able to pull of anything worthwile. I seem to get them stuck on obstacles and lose too much speed at critical points trying to get past llts. Like the first one runs head first straight into the middle of the llt and the others pile up around it.
Zippers - I have been surprised a few times at how far a zipper rush can get past defenses. Great against nearly all of us who like to put most of the defensive power in the front line and put valuable economy in the back. I was in team game and decided 20 or 30 zippers could get through the defensive line and hopefully do some serious damage to unprotected economy behind. Well they rushed right through the defensive line, losing maybe half of their numbers. But the opponenent had more defences with their base, so they didn't do much there. But they blew up 3/4 of the front defensive line on their way through, allowing my team mate to waltz through and clean up. And there is no nicer sight than an opposing guardian on a hill surrounded by your zippers and unable to hit them :D
What should the purpose of the blade be? As a unit that is powerful enough to do significant damage even if the opponenet has anti air? Then it probably needs to do more damage or have more hitpoints. As a surprise raider? Then it needs to be cheaper and differentiated from brawlers somehow. Or maybe someone else has found a situation they are useful in?
Other unit musings: Atomic bombers can be powerful in late game. If you can build a huge economy and mass them up they are possibly the most mobile and concentrated form of firepower in the game. And they don't go down easy to anti air unless the opponenet builds more anti air than I normally seem to see.
Weasel - seems to be a mostly ignored unit. I was playing a one vs one game against a newbie and had control of 3/4 of the map and was ready to move in for the kill. He then sent something like 20 weasels against me. They surprised me by getting past 2 lines of llts and kbots and pretty much into line of sight of my factories before I stopped them. I thought there has got to be a bit of possibility in early weasel rushes, but so far haven't been able to pull of anything worthwile. I seem to get them stuck on obstacles and lose too much speed at critical points trying to get past llts. Like the first one runs head first straight into the middle of the llt and the others pile up around it.
Zippers - I have been surprised a few times at how far a zipper rush can get past defenses. Great against nearly all of us who like to put most of the defensive power in the front line and put valuable economy in the back. I was in team game and decided 20 or 30 zippers could get through the defensive line and hopefully do some serious damage to unprotected economy behind. Well they rushed right through the defensive line, losing maybe half of their numbers. But the opponenent had more defences with their base, so they didn't do much there. But they blew up 3/4 of the front defensive line on their way through, allowing my team mate to waltz through and clean up. And there is no nicer sight than an opposing guardian on a hill surrounded by your zippers and unable to hit them :D
Amphibious Units and Hovercraft need a boost. They are next to useless right now, because all what those can do, any gunship does better.
The key to this is speed. As all three types are designed to neglect terrain, the planes still come out on top every time. I really dont see a reason why the amphib units are slower then their land-counter parts. For expample a GarSpike (light amphi tank) is slower than a Instigator. Hovers are slower than planes. Pelicans (amphi bot) is slower than a warrior.
So, whenever i try to play with amphi-units and/or hovers, which are as flexible as the other techpathes, i lose. That is because the amphi units are slow and lack air-cover. The hovers are even worse, scince their con can only build level 1, though the hovers themselfes are lvl 2. They are also too expensive compared to normal tanks, which they do not overpower.
So, if the hovers would be like 20% faster and the tanks and bots also, maybe then the hybrid-techs might stand a chance against air units.
As it is now, all you can really do on a map larger than 10x10 is go air ASAP or you will get raped. The only other option is to porc hard. Landunits are at a distinct disadvantage on any map that isnt purely land and isnt small-sized, since they are just too darn slow to get anywhere before the enemie´s con planes arrive.
Lets make the hybrids competitive on big maps to fill the gap between slow and hindered land and air units. Make hybrids (hovers,amphies) a lot faster and a little cheaper, maybe then they will stand a chance. The fact that all hybrids can only be built as lvl 2 or lvl 1 1/2 make secure that you cant rush em on small maps, where they might then overpower in territorial control. But they need a speed-boost bad to compete with air on large maps.
The key to this is speed. As all three types are designed to neglect terrain, the planes still come out on top every time. I really dont see a reason why the amphib units are slower then their land-counter parts. For expample a GarSpike (light amphi tank) is slower than a Instigator. Hovers are slower than planes. Pelicans (amphi bot) is slower than a warrior.
So, whenever i try to play with amphi-units and/or hovers, which are as flexible as the other techpathes, i lose. That is because the amphi units are slow and lack air-cover. The hovers are even worse, scince their con can only build level 1, though the hovers themselfes are lvl 2. They are also too expensive compared to normal tanks, which they do not overpower.
So, if the hovers would be like 20% faster and the tanks and bots also, maybe then the hybrid-techs might stand a chance against air units.
As it is now, all you can really do on a map larger than 10x10 is go air ASAP or you will get raped. The only other option is to porc hard. Landunits are at a distinct disadvantage on any map that isnt purely land and isnt small-sized, since they are just too darn slow to get anywhere before the enemie´s con planes arrive.
Lets make the hybrids competitive on big maps to fill the gap between slow and hindered land and air units. Make hybrids (hovers,amphies) a lot faster and a little cheaper, maybe then they will stand a chance. The fact that all hybrids can only be built as lvl 2 or lvl 1 1/2 make secure that you cant rush em on small maps, where they might then overpower in territorial control. But they need a speed-boost bad to compete with air on large maps.
Gunships are most efftive aginst units.
Bombers are most efftive aginst buildings.
ANY QWESTIONS???
Seriusly, Gunships is for takeing out units. Good for defending aginst armys (who will have to carry AA for every attack when they attack since your gunships can pwn they're armys) with low AA, and posibly takeing out minor stuructures like winds, mexxes and LLT. They are not for killing big buildings. I played a game tonight where 2 crashers had died to 3 level 1 gunships. Now thats with 2 gunships alive to...
Bombers can be used aginst units to, but they are less efftive. They will ofen miss their loads aginst smaller and faster targets (unless in a svarm) or be shot down bye AA fast. They can be used, but they better be used visely. They are the perfect building destroyers thou. for example, someone use 3 bombers to take out a lab in 1 pass. It also take 2-3 rockets of a defender to take down one. Now, but your head to use, and think how many bombers plus fodder do ya need for that fusion?
Fun fact: It's 1 am
Bombers are most efftive aginst buildings.
ANY QWESTIONS???
Seriusly, Gunships is for takeing out units. Good for defending aginst armys (who will have to carry AA for every attack when they attack since your gunships can pwn they're armys) with low AA, and posibly takeing out minor stuructures like winds, mexxes and LLT. They are not for killing big buildings. I played a game tonight where 2 crashers had died to 3 level 1 gunships. Now thats with 2 gunships alive to...
Bombers can be used aginst units to, but they are less efftive. They will ofen miss their loads aginst smaller and faster targets (unless in a svarm) or be shot down bye AA fast. They can be used, but they better be used visely. They are the perfect building destroyers thou. for example, someone use 3 bombers to take out a lab in 1 pass. It also take 2-3 rockets of a defender to take down one. Now, but your head to use, and think how many bombers plus fodder do ya need for that fusion?
Fun fact: It's 1 am
I also dont get the point of advanced gunships! If they get owned by flaks and must be used against things with no air cover, why the hell not just build brawlers??? If i wanted air assaulting under AA id make krows/liches. They do not seem to fill ANY role at the moment!
Weasels are a must if youre going vehicles in a skilled game. In those first minutes they are used to take out some mexes/winds and that is a valuable delay to the enemy economy, paying itself off 95% of the time you try sending them! All while not being uber like XTA weasels! I love them the way they are (a bit more LOS would help though!)
For late game, there are 5 rules you MUST follow if you want to consistently win games, in order of importance:
1-KEEP DEVELOPING THAT ECONOMY! no mex spots? tough shit, make some metal gens! If you have the space, make metal gens instead of moho metal makers/fusions, every time! They are ridiculously overpowered in this version and allow you to DOUBLE your economy every 3-4 minutes, so in just 15 minutes you could have 30 (THIRTY) times your current economy!!
2-Make anti-air ALL OVER your base. Lots of players like to develop a massive air force in secret that WILL destroy you unless you have heavy anti-air. That means flaks/mercuries, not any crappy little missile defenses you might be thiking of. Those stop raids but not an all-out assault!
3-Keep ALL edges of you base defended, even at the back/middle or places with mountain chains/water around. Nothing is stopping your enemy from dropping some units via transports and ruining your day!
4-Make FULL use of advanced jammer towers. BLANKET your whole base twice over with them. If you followed the previous rules they wont be able to find the jammers and since you got spares they wont be able to uncover your base. This renders his artillery/nukes/units/planes/everything inneffective and you will either win or turn the game into a slow world-war I trench war, where you need to slowly advance your defenses and use rez kbots to win. It sucks but Caydr said he wont change lvl2 jammer towers, so instead of whining about it, simply abuse it! (and hope the enemies wont do the same). Following the rules so far will ensure a win even in a long-slog game like that, just keep gaining ground! ADV Jammers are the most cost-effective defense you could ever WISH for. Not using them is like not massing flashes as arm, a jesus approach that yelds no results! Abuse exploits while they exist and get the upper hand!
5-MAKE USE OF SURPRISE! Sun-Tzu was not a drunk, he was a pimp and he knew his stuff! If you are building that force of bombers/gunships/mechs/whatever and cant wait to send them to the (relatively) undefended enemy base, wait a bit more and build a bigger force. If you send 3 bombers to his base that has no AA you will do little damage and he will build some AA, losing forever the chance to use bombers. Wait until you have lots of bombers and then make a breakthru, kill his economy and plants and then his comm. Same goes for attacking a weakly defended flank: Wait until you can do meaningful damage before losing the surprise element, if you attack early you might feel cool but youll get owned in the end. Patience is a skill to be mastered!
theres my tuppence
Weasels are a must if youre going vehicles in a skilled game. In those first minutes they are used to take out some mexes/winds and that is a valuable delay to the enemy economy, paying itself off 95% of the time you try sending them! All while not being uber like XTA weasels! I love them the way they are (a bit more LOS would help though!)
For late game, there are 5 rules you MUST follow if you want to consistently win games, in order of importance:
1-KEEP DEVELOPING THAT ECONOMY! no mex spots? tough shit, make some metal gens! If you have the space, make metal gens instead of moho metal makers/fusions, every time! They are ridiculously overpowered in this version and allow you to DOUBLE your economy every 3-4 minutes, so in just 15 minutes you could have 30 (THIRTY) times your current economy!!
2-Make anti-air ALL OVER your base. Lots of players like to develop a massive air force in secret that WILL destroy you unless you have heavy anti-air. That means flaks/mercuries, not any crappy little missile defenses you might be thiking of. Those stop raids but not an all-out assault!
3-Keep ALL edges of you base defended, even at the back/middle or places with mountain chains/water around. Nothing is stopping your enemy from dropping some units via transports and ruining your day!
4-Make FULL use of advanced jammer towers. BLANKET your whole base twice over with them. If you followed the previous rules they wont be able to find the jammers and since you got spares they wont be able to uncover your base. This renders his artillery/nukes/units/planes/everything inneffective and you will either win or turn the game into a slow world-war I trench war, where you need to slowly advance your defenses and use rez kbots to win. It sucks but Caydr said he wont change lvl2 jammer towers, so instead of whining about it, simply abuse it! (and hope the enemies wont do the same). Following the rules so far will ensure a win even in a long-slog game like that, just keep gaining ground! ADV Jammers are the most cost-effective defense you could ever WISH for. Not using them is like not massing flashes as arm, a jesus approach that yelds no results! Abuse exploits while they exist and get the upper hand!
5-MAKE USE OF SURPRISE! Sun-Tzu was not a drunk, he was a pimp and he knew his stuff! If you are building that force of bombers/gunships/mechs/whatever and cant wait to send them to the (relatively) undefended enemy base, wait a bit more and build a bigger force. If you send 3 bombers to his base that has no AA you will do little damage and he will build some AA, losing forever the chance to use bombers. Wait until you have lots of bombers and then make a breakthru, kill his economy and plants and then his comm. Same goes for attacking a weakly defended flank: Wait until you can do meaningful damage before losing the surprise element, if you attack early you might feel cool but youll get owned in the end. Patience is a skill to be mastered!
theres my tuppence