Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46

mynthon · Post by **mynthon** » 08 Mar 2006, 23:42

Zenka wrote:Oh knock it you two.
Since when is TA or Spring based on reality?

since release date. In TA even guardians shoot to air units. Jethros shoot ground units - only flakkers shoot only air units.. And if engine alows it why it cannot be implemented? this one and many others NEW IDEAS made game that people played 10 years.

Why spring is 3d? It is too real, lets play warcraf II. Hmm.. in warcraft archers can shoot ground,water and air units - its too realistic. we should play ....hmmm i dont know - pacman?

Main reason why units should be able to shoot everthing thats move is that this is very cool, realistic and engine allows it. Every rts game has aa only units or anti-ground only units (except for ta) so why not to create something new and more realistic?

you have XXI century engine but your toughts are still in XIX.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 08 Mar 2006, 23:44

[quote="Zenka"]Oh knock it you two.
Since when is TA or Spring based on reality?

Jethro (should) fire only on air units becouse his description says so.
Rockos (should) fire only at ground units becouse the jethro would else be useless.

This was entirely my point zenka lol, I agree with you, sometimes I think the sarcastic way I word things doesnt really come across in the text hehe

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 08 Mar 2006, 23:55

The point would be that although AA units could fire at ground, they would be fairly weak and wouldn't be effective against a force of real land skirmshers at all... even if you had 10 jethros firing on 6 rockos, the rockos can still win because they're faster and very effective for ground-to-ground.

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 09 Mar 2006, 00:11

listen, if we're going to bandy around with "reality" here, let's think about this: The Jethro's (and Crasher's, and Samson's, and Slasher's) weapon is roughly the equivalent to an AIM-9 Stinger missile. Tell me this: how suited are those to shooting at vehicles? How often are they used as anti-vehicle weapons? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that they are poorly suited, and are never used as such, period. the "reality" argument does not hold.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 09 Mar 2006, 00:18

Well, let's say for a moment we made Jethros ground working.

Firstly, they would be used as a form of ground defence, VS fleas and posibly AK's. This would offcourse make an ultimate ground and air defence in good qwanties makeing level 1 air, witch is alredy a risk to pull off, a total disaster.

Then we could try to edit the (i'm going wild estimated here)100 mobile ground units we have to take less damage from the Missles to make em weak... i mean, cadyr don't really have more important stuff to do then fill out 100 unit codes so certin AA units can fire at ground.

Then if someone argues that "OH HEY, IF JETHROS, WHY NOT MISSLE TOWERS, AND FLAKKERS, AND SKEETERS!".

So to balance it out good will be hard as you see, and the only outcome is that we will either have an pretty awesome ground defence that will make air obsolete, or a unit that fires at ground for no reson since it dosen't do any noticebole damage.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 09 Mar 2006, 00:36

If it aint broke, dont fix it, wether people use aa to fire at ground units in real life has no bearing on this whatsoever.
Jethros are fine as is and have been for a long time - rockos hit ground units, thuds hit ground units, fleas hit ground units, peewees hit ground units -we dont need anymore units that hit ground at level1
The missile bot role is already taken by the rocko, having an aa only unit is good, making it hit ground too will just make rockos obsolete,
go back to playing xta if you want jethros to fire at ground units!

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 09 Mar 2006, 01:02

I didn't want to get Jethros firing at ground mate; I was just pointing out why he reasoned the way he did

Andreask · Post by **Andreask** » 09 Mar 2006, 02:36

The Buzzsaw needs high-trajectory mode.

The Vulcan has it.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 09 Mar 2006, 03:54

what went up will come back down in approx... 5 minutes :D

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 09 Mar 2006, 04:18

WHAT? does not.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 09 Mar 2006, 05:26

it was a joke dude... :D

krogothe · Post by **krogothe** » 09 Mar 2006, 12:20

I just want either jethros to hit ground because its cool to have a weak -long range ground-attacking unit for kbots and because they are so slow that i might as well send a con kbot to build a defender where i want the jethro to be, its faster and more practical, and probably cheaper...

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 09 Mar 2006, 12:33

jethros are getting sped up in the next release though

Chocapic · Post by **Chocapic** » 09 Mar 2006, 14:47

lol can i warm up the fights a bit ?

any 5 xta flakkers well positioned decimated any 20ish lvl1 GROUND army (rofl..).[/b]

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 09 Mar 2006, 15:19

cost effective...

Belmakor · Post by **Belmakor** » 09 Mar 2006, 15:29

FizWizz wrote:
Belmakor wrote:Ok, I went back and read the thread, especially the stuff re metal generators. In light of all the comments, I'm wondering why the changelog still reflects the plan to remove them?. . . . .
Perhaps you missed Ginekelog's quote:

ginekolog wrote:i made some calculations abaut MM vs MG using combined costs(e+m)

. . . . .

We see that MG is allmost 1.5 times (or 50%) better than MM.

MG is atm great unit for economy, its only ~30% worse than moho mine.

Remove MG or increase its cost for 30%.
It's on the very bottom of page 10

Ah, yes, I think I missed that (looong thread...). I'm happy for the Metal Generators to be reduced in effectiveness a bit to aid balance. Just don't remove them :)

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 09 Mar 2006, 16:24

You guys are missing the point completely of the AA lockout for Jethros.

If they're burning their weak rockets at ground targets.. HOW THE HELL ARE THEY SOPOSED TO DEFEND AGIAINST AIR?!
They have a slow fire rate, and are the bare minimum for anti-air support.

None of the other LVL1 Kbots are worth a crap to knock down Air power in any capacity, remove the lockout on air attack only for the Jethros and you got some serious problems when you're up against both ground and air targets.

If anything, those Jethros should have the same movement speed as Thuds or even Storms just so they can hold Formation.

You guys just aren't seeing the value of them "AS IS" no force is complete without some Anti-air, if they're shooting at ground targets they have to reload to shoot the airplanes, damage already inflicted your force has failed and now are destroyed by air.

Build them into a small group, and send them along.
If there is no air, use them as shields to get closer to the targets.
If there is air, then at least you have a better chance to survive to the target.

Making them shoot ground targets make them a Moot unit.

jellyman · Post by **jellyman** » 09 Mar 2006, 22:14

I like the idea of all anti air hitting ground. Obviously that might need some seroius rebalancing of stuff like screamers. It just seems 'obvious' to me that something that can fire at air can fire at ground (or are the bullets afraid of the ground??). I even saw one of my anti air units fire at an airplane, miss and hit one of my llts. Too much was happening at the moment to tell if it did damage or not though.

I would hope that if this was the case that anti air would be smart enough to target air in preference to ground when both targets are available. If not then of course keep it the way it is. And surely if Jethro was able to hit ground, we could still find a way to balance Rockos so that they were still useful as harder hitting shortranged units.

Of course the current way is fun as well, meaning a tough decision on how much anti air do you build. Not enough and you get butchered if you get attacked air. Too much and you might be at a significant disadvantage against someone who builds only ground attack. Maybe you need to scout and find out what the opponent is doing.

It is really a matter of taste. My taste is anti air hit ground. I assume Caydr's taste is anti air is air only. So probably a huge waste of time discussing this topic. But I can't help myself........

And on metal makers, if they are so badly unbalanced, why do I see them used so rarely?

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 09 Mar 2006, 23:31

I would actually prefer things to be the way they are, except perhaps for Slashers to be a bit cheaper; I never see them used in online games...

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 09 Mar 2006, 23:43

metal generators make sense. if u conquer terrain its not like its all metal (cept on metal maps and the occasional other map) and being able to exploit the fact u have space to build with widely spaced MGs is good IMO
i love the way Air is balanced now, i no longer feel guilty as its quite easy to counter but still owns un-AA-ed stuff. RPS FTW ^^

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation: Spring 1.46