NTai XE10.1b
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
I finally managed to recreate the single player bug everyones going on about for myself, and I fixed it.
I did fix a cause of the crashbug but the crash si still there veven though the crash code was debugged and tested. It seems a new puzzling error has come up where the debugger gives me errors for code in one of the dll's int eh srping folder that goes along the lines of mscv71.dll or somehtign similair, quoating spring code ti ahs no code for, followed by somehting todo with strings and the << operator and finally a crash.
I did fix a cause of the crashbug but the crash si still there veven though the crash code was debugged and tested. It seems a new puzzling error has come up where the debugger gives me errors for code in one of the dll's int eh srping folder that goes along the lines of mscv71.dll or somehtign similair, quoating spring code ti ahs no code for, followed by somehting todo with strings and the << operator and finally a crash.
XE7b released, see first post.
I've fixed the problem with single NTAI only working, and in the process fixed the bug that made NTAI crash. It's been tested extensively by myself, and 3 others (Argh in particular, considering the exponential nanoblobz mod)
I also added a few tweaks to prevent random stall with regards to building placement, aswell as to prevent the AI always building in the same pattern if it builds the same things at startup...
I've fixed the problem with single NTAI only working, and in the process fixed the bug that made NTAI crash. It's been tested extensively by myself, and 3 others (Argh in particular, considering the exponential nanoblobz mod)
I also added a few tweaks to prevent random stall with regards to building placement, aswell as to prevent the AI always building in the same pattern if it builds the same things at startup...
AF, I ran a bunch of AI tests this weekend just for the fun of it, testing AAI and NTAI. NTAI had serious problems. NOTE: I never actually fought NTAI against AAI, only NTAI against itself and AAI against itself. Also note that I used AA 1.44. This was my first foray into AI vs AI testing, I'll probably do lots more in the future.
Settings:
All of this was with Spring 0.70b2, NTAI XE7b, AA 1.44 mod. CORE and ARM both tested, CORE performed better (I think you had mentioned this before). Maps included Painted Desert and Country Crossings. Games were typically 1v1 or 2v2.
Results: Bad
The commander would build a lot of infrastructure, but would take a while before building a kbot lab, if ever... some games it never even progressed that far, even if it had +50 metal or more due to all the mexes it had built. If it did build a K-bot lab, it would proceed to build numerous units that would sit in a mass around the lab and never attack. It would scout with a few light units, but these were the only agressive actions of any kind.
The commander would also seemingly fall asleep every now and then after constructing something. Also, wandering commanders would not attack enemy buildings even if they walked right up to them.
One other weird behavior, NTAI would build numerous depth-charge launchers on all-land maps. Perhaps these can attack ground units though... I've never built them myself. It also builds numerous dragon's eyes, I'm not sure if those help the computer or not but they don't seem to be a good choice.
Results: Good
The good news was that if the Commander did get around to building a factory, NTAI would go on to produce a quite impressive infrastucture. It also seemed like NTAI built better positional defenses than AAI , both in quantity and quality. For example, AAI rarely builds anything beyond LLTs and missile towers, maybe a HLT or two. NTAI built a fair amount of GAAT guns and even some medium plasma turrets like Punishers.
Also good news, I had no crashes whatsoever with NTAI, though I had a few with AAI.
Summary:
NTAI is obviously broken at the moment. My only thought is that perhaps because NTAI was playing itself and therefore was never attacked (since both sides would just mass troops and not do anything) it never identified a target or something? I'm pretty new to this whole learning AI thing so I'm not sure how it works. But it seems other players are also reporting that NTAI masses forces at its base without ever attacking.
AAI performed really quite well. It has a pretty solid buildup and attack, though it had some crashes that were frustrating.
I would not mind running future tests, I enjoy observing AI performance, and it lets me work on something else on the side. If you want me to run more specific tests, I will gladly do so, just let me know.
Settings:
All of this was with Spring 0.70b2, NTAI XE7b, AA 1.44 mod. CORE and ARM both tested, CORE performed better (I think you had mentioned this before). Maps included Painted Desert and Country Crossings. Games were typically 1v1 or 2v2.
Results: Bad
The commander would build a lot of infrastructure, but would take a while before building a kbot lab, if ever... some games it never even progressed that far, even if it had +50 metal or more due to all the mexes it had built. If it did build a K-bot lab, it would proceed to build numerous units that would sit in a mass around the lab and never attack. It would scout with a few light units, but these were the only agressive actions of any kind.
The commander would also seemingly fall asleep every now and then after constructing something. Also, wandering commanders would not attack enemy buildings even if they walked right up to them.
One other weird behavior, NTAI would build numerous depth-charge launchers on all-land maps. Perhaps these can attack ground units though... I've never built them myself. It also builds numerous dragon's eyes, I'm not sure if those help the computer or not but they don't seem to be a good choice.
Results: Good
The good news was that if the Commander did get around to building a factory, NTAI would go on to produce a quite impressive infrastucture. It also seemed like NTAI built better positional defenses than AAI , both in quantity and quality. For example, AAI rarely builds anything beyond LLTs and missile towers, maybe a HLT or two. NTAI built a fair amount of GAAT guns and even some medium plasma turrets like Punishers.
Also good news, I had no crashes whatsoever with NTAI, though I had a few with AAI.
Summary:
NTAI is obviously broken at the moment. My only thought is that perhaps because NTAI was playing itself and therefore was never attacked (since both sides would just mass troops and not do anything) it never identified a target or something? I'm pretty new to this whole learning AI thing so I'm not sure how it works. But it seems other players are also reporting that NTAI masses forces at its base without ever attacking.
AAI performed really quite well. It has a pretty solid buildup and attack, though it had some crashes that were frustrating.
I would not mind running future tests, I enjoy observing AI performance, and it lets me work on something else on the side. If you want me to run more specific tests, I will gladly do so, just let me know.
So you mean this is WAD, right? That makes some sense to me, since static defenses are only so useful compared to a decent offense that keeps the enemy off-balance. And most AI's tend to lost quickly once their base has been broken into so static defenses are only holding off the inevitable. Still, it seems like AAI could benefit from a few more HLTs and medium plasma turrets, defensive structures that have a pretty good range so that placement isn't as important. However, I guess it is up to the philosophy of the AI designer.submarine wrote:that's no surprise at all, if you use a relatively fresh aai insattlation ...Hansolo88 wrote: For example, AAI rarely builds anything beyond LLTs and missile towers, maybe a HLT or two. NTAI built a fair amount of GAAT guns and even some medium plasma turrets like Punishers.
NTAI detects the jellyfish (I think thats what it's called) correctly as a defence and thats as far as ti goes. I dont know how to filter it out absed on what it can attack, all i know is it attacks, and very little information about the weapon it has, but not enough.
As for AA, AA is technically not supported by NTAI, it works but NOBODY IS WORKING ON COMAPTABILITY. For one 2 tdf values can make a world of difference there, namely the cheap_multiplier tag and the scout_speed tag. Also new default abstract files for AA specifics to prevent stall or energy/metal wastage would be a godsend but I cant do them myself.
Make the cheap_multiplier higher, and change the min scout speed tag untill they work correctly. Afetr that start tweaking a new buildtree after setting th correct tags.
NTAI XE7 can be a lot mroe pwoerful than it is on a vanilla install if you change the buildtrees. I dont have the necessary game skills to make good decisions about the buildtrees, but others do. If you do change the data then email me it back so i can make it public and bundle it with future versions.
NTAI could be made 10x as powerful through buildtrees alone.
As for AA, AA is technically not supported by NTAI, it works but NOBODY IS WORKING ON COMAPTABILITY. For one 2 tdf values can make a world of difference there, namely the cheap_multiplier tag and the scout_speed tag. Also new default abstract files for AA specifics to prevent stall or energy/metal wastage would be a godsend but I cant do them myself.
Make the cheap_multiplier higher, and change the min scout speed tag untill they work correctly. Afetr that start tweaking a new buildtree after setting th correct tags.
NTAI XE7 can be a lot mroe pwoerful than it is on a vanilla install if you change the buildtrees. I dont have the necessary game skills to make good decisions about the buildtrees, but others do. If you do change the data then email me it back so i can make it public and bundle it with future versions.
NTAI could be made 10x as powerful through buildtrees alone.
AA 1.44 - thats right.
btw. anyone kow good, big map with lot of metal for ai testing? I think green haven is too hard, becouse ground isnt flat, and ais often build plants in place where vehicles annot move. Also find good place for defenses is also hard.
I also noticed that aai and ntai often sends commander near enemy base even on big maps (in most cases i play greenhaven). Commanders movement should be limited to x% of map size.
btw. anyone kow good, big map with lot of metal for ai testing? I think green haven is too hard, becouse ground isnt flat, and ais often build plants in place where vehicles annot move. Also find good place for defenses is also hard.
I also noticed that aai and ntai often sends commander near enemy base even on big maps (in most cases i play greenhaven). Commanders movement should be limited to x% of map size.
Just for the record, from my observation NTAI builds plenty of energy, more than enough to fully power its economy and energy-consuming weapons... the commander does wander around a fair amount, however, but I think that is partly tied to the messed up build order where he doesn't really seem to see any purpose in life other than wandering around building solars and mexes.
AF: First, what about the more basic problem, of NTAI simply never attacking with its forces? This doesn't sound like a mod problem to me, this sounds more basic... is there a simple fix to this?
Second, what must be done to help adapt NTAI to AA? I looked around inside the NTAI files. While there is a folder for AA144S, there doesn't seem to be any buildtrees in it. Is it using the old AA142 ones? Is there a trick to the buildtrees, beyond the obvious basic list of units/structures?
I love AA and what it has done for Spring, so I'm willing to take a stab at helping out NTAI with AA, but I don't have any experience modding AI for Spring so it would be good to know where to begin. I can definitely tweak the cheap_multiplier tag and try to observe effects, not sure what effect it will have though so I don't know what to look for.
AF: First, what about the more basic problem, of NTAI simply never attacking with its forces? This doesn't sound like a mod problem to me, this sounds more basic... is there a simple fix to this?
Second, what must be done to help adapt NTAI to AA? I looked around inside the NTAI files. While there is a folder for AA144S, there doesn't seem to be any buildtrees in it. Is it using the old AA142 ones? Is there a trick to the buildtrees, beyond the obvious basic list of units/structures?
I love AA and what it has done for Spring, so I'm willing to take a stab at helping out NTAI with AA, but I don't have any experience modding AI for Spring so it would be good to know where to begin. I can definitely tweak the cheap_multiplier tag and try to observe effects, not sure what effect it will have though so I don't know what to look for.
Read the mod explanations textfile.
The mod.tdf in the AA folders simply changes the scout and cheap-multiplier values then tells NTAI to load the default abstract mod data, which is very abstract and takes no account of AA's strengths or weaknesses.
If it helps I'll upload the data Argh wrote for his nanoblobz, it wont work unles she gives you hsi current build but its a better example than any fot he buildtree data in the XE7b release....
Also no atatckign is probably just a symptom of how AA works combiend with NTAI. If all else fails add every unti to both atatckers and scouters, and they'll go out on a seek and destroy mission like KAI 0.0 does, onyl when they encounter enemies they stop and attack then move on.....
The mod.tdf in the AA folders simply changes the scout and cheap-multiplier values then tells NTAI to load the default abstract mod data, which is very abstract and takes no account of AA's strengths or weaknesses.
If it helps I'll upload the data Argh wrote for his nanoblobz, it wont work unles she gives you hsi current build but its a better example than any fot he buildtree data in the XE7b release....
Also no atatckign is probably just a symptom of how AA works combiend with NTAI. If all else fails add every unti to both atatckers and scouters, and they'll go out on a seek and destroy mission like KAI 0.0 does, onyl when they encounter enemies they stop and attack then move on.....
http://www.darkstars.co.uk/index.php?na ... ic&p=76#76
That thread explains all the mod data stuff NTAI loads far better than ought else.....
That thread explains all the mod data stuff NTAI loads far better than ought else.....
Im absolutely sure, AAI doesn't do that on big maps since it uses its commander only inside its own base. however it may happen that on small maps (liek small divide) bases are very close togethermynthon wrote: I also noticed that aai and ntai often sends commander near enemy base even on big maps (in most cases i play greenhaven). Commanders movement should be limited to x% of map size.
but apart from that ntai xe7b only builds mexes, solars and light defences running on both aa and xta on big ground maps (different comet cather version); did i perhaps install it incorrectly?
Submarine: I've observed AAI a lot and its commander definitely does not wander outside its base, so I can back you up on that one.
I'm also glad I'm not the only one who noticed NTAI's current strange behavior. AF, I wrote you in the "Requests" thread a detailed description of my troubleshooting that came up empty. Hope you can respond.
I'm also glad I'm not the only one who noticed NTAI's current strange behavior. AF, I wrote you in the "Requests" thread a detailed description of my troubleshooting that came up empty. Hope you can respond.
Ahk, so far every output of the threat amtrix I create tells me that all the threat values are zero, whatsmore contrary to what the code says no untis are being identified as attackers at all, infact the function seems to 'exit' before its finished even though there are no return command sinside it =s
Think back adn tell me what was the last version of NTAI to atatck you and I dont mean a scout or the dod unit I mean an identifiable mass/stream of units NTAI sent out....
If you cna answer that then I can forwards port the atatck system from that point otherwise I'll ahve to write a new one which should take about a month considering what i ahve todo combiend with what I've got todo already cosndiering school/cw etc..
Otherwise you could have a fixed version within 2 days at most.
Also i dont want to release an XE7.5 if it ahs the same buildtrees as it currently has for AA and XTA....
Think back adn tell me what was the last version of NTAI to atatck you and I dont mean a scout or the dod unit I mean an identifiable mass/stream of units NTAI sent out....
If you cna answer that then I can forwards port the atatck system from that point otherwise I'll ahve to write a new one which should take about a month considering what i ahve todo combiend with what I've got todo already cosndiering school/cw etc..
Otherwise you could have a fixed version within 2 days at most.
Also i dont want to release an XE7.5 if it ahs the same buildtrees as it currently has for AA and XTA....