Do Not Quit When You Start Losing

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 20 Feb 2006, 18:59

Poor etiquette, bad attitude, whining, etc are what qutting like that explemplify. Do not quit no matter how badly you are losing; the other guy wants to see his shit blow your base up; do not deprive him of that, because you woudl not want him to deprive you of blowing his shit up if you were winning.

'Nuf said.

Post by SJ » 20 Feb 2006, 19:38

Actually seen from a go/chess perspective the opposite is true. Forcing the winning player to waste time on mopping up is impolite. Can never hurt to ask though.

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 20 Feb 2006, 19:39

I usually offer only if I know the other guy knows I'm losing... otherwise I make him suffer

Chocapic · Post by **Chocapic** » 20 Feb 2006, 20:53

there has been a thread brought up somewhat related to this before, but it was concerned to ppl quiting without any warning of what any type (and even if hosting) and that is just rude and bad sportsmanship.
however saying that ur lost and resigning by giving ur stuff to allies or destroying it, imo is very ok.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 20 Feb 2006, 21:10

I think there's a big difference between quitting when you're bona-fide dead and quitting when you've taken severe damage but are still viably alive. If you actually just have a comm and a mex and a solar and a LLT left 30 minutes into the game, I see no reason to keep playing - you're obviously dead. However, if you've lost half of your base but still have the other half, then you're not obviously dead, and should not quit.

It's when you and your opponent disagree on your degree of deadness that problems start.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 20 Feb 2006, 21:22

When you're playing with an ally you should never self-d, period. I've seen players fuck the hell out of thier allies by seld-ding and blowing up allied units in the comsplosion and what not when even without the allied player's units the guys allies acctually had a fairly decent chance, expecially if they got the extra res flow structures.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 20 Feb 2006, 21:42

I never quit unless it's completely clear that I have no chance of recovery (like i have 3 dragons eyes scattered around the map and nothing else and my allies are dead). I agree with SJ, it's a pretty big pain in the ass when players are content to sit on their one cloaked unit until you leave in frustration. If a win/loss ratio or something like that is ever implemented, doubly so.

More than once I've been reduced to the situation Felix refers to - a comm and a solar or something and ended up winning. The other teams assume I'm not worth worrying about, and I secretly start building up an army behind a hill or something... then when the others wear themselves out and are least prepared, in goes the pyro swarm!

BeeDee · Post by **BeeDee** » 20 Feb 2006, 22:34

Caydr wrote:More than once I've been reduced to the situation Felix refers to - a comm and a solar or something and ended up winning. The other teams assume I'm not worth worrying about, and I secretly start building up an army behind a hill or something... then when the others wear themselves out and are least prepared, in goes the pyro swarm!

Heh. One of my most memorable games in OTA had something like this happen to me, except I eventually came out from behind that hill with a Krogoth. I figured it was impossible to build a numerically substantial force without being noticed, and if I was noticed I was dead, so I managed to cram everything - gantry, fusions, moho - into half a screen's area. I even reclaimed my adv. kbot facility after producing jammers and constructors.

Other times when I'm in an impossible situation I often attempt to offer my opponent a negotiated surrender or ceasefire to save the lives of my remaining troops. Never seems to work. :)

Dead.Rabit · Post by **Dead.Rabit** » 20 Feb 2006, 22:35

ive seen people do it out of spite and stuff.. but even tho i like the meeting of people from all over the world.. even if you dislike your ally

whaqt it all boils down to is your there to play the game.. thats what your online to do.. not make friends or enamies.. play (tho making friends is always good)

so to me at least anyone who practices these rituals is either a bad looser or not entirely sure of why he's there. even if you dislike someone you should respect there want to play the game.

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 21 Feb 2006, 01:53

If he quits (not self-d) he's stuff will still be there for you to blow up, no!?

I guess that is not so much fun because you're not beating controled units but, instead, mindless units roaming around.
But if we enter the fun discussion, it wasn't, probably, funny to the losing player either, so...
Although when the player is host, things are diferent. Hosting is a sort of compromise.

About the fun of seeing stuff beeing blown up, and because most people prefer not to get beatings, if some sort of game type was made where we played teamed up to break down big bases controled by the computer (he doesn't minds beeing pounded), would be extra sweet!!! .. ho wait, SupCom will have that, multiplayer missions. Nice!

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Feb 2006, 02:51

For a while kuroneko was working on a dedicated host bot... Something like that would be great because then the host isn't in the position of having to sit doing nothing when he's been blown up, because the host is just a dedicated hosting macine, not one of the acctual players.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 21 Feb 2006, 04:38

To quote from the SWTA Manual:

In-Game Etiquette

Online, everyone wants to have fun. Most people define fun as having a hard-fought game against an able-opponent, where both sides had the opportunity to win, but the player with the most skill, strategy, and daring eventually won out in the end. There are some players, however, who define fun as ruining everyone else's fun. Of course, some players don't even realise that what they are doing is ruining someone else's gaming experience. It is important that you think before you do something, whether what you are doing is really in the spirit of fun for all. Don't let that stop you marching through the rubble of what was once your opponent's base as he screams for mercy, though. That isn't what is intended here.

In-game etiquette is a difficult subject to cover, because many players have different standards. You will have to come to your own conclusions about what is right, and what is wrong.

Over at SWS, we believe that "anything goes" when it comes to strategies and tactics. If you are beaten by a strategy, you should either work out how to counter it ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ or work out how to do it yourself. If you are rushed repeatedly, you shouldn't run screaming how "rushing" is a dirty tactic. We believe that there is no such thing as a dirty tactic. It is your fault for not thinking of how to use it first ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ or not being in a position to beat it. If you can get away with grabbing the enemy's commander with a Correllian Cargo Hauler, do it! It is your enemy's fault for leaving their commander without adequate air defence.

However, there are nonetheless certain things that are definite "no-no's" that people will occasionally do, that have nothing to do with a clever tactic or strategy. These things only serve to ruin the game for other players. They include, but are not limited to:

1. Quitting as soon as things start looking bad for you. This is an immensely frustrating; especially when the outcome isn't at all obvious. You may think "well, I've lost now, I may as well quit", but you don't have full LOS, and you don't know what your enemy is up too. He might be fighting at the absolute maximum of his ability, and a quick counter attack might topple him.

2. Even if it is absolutely 100% sure that you are now finished, you should let your opponent have the victory which he has deserved, and let him crush you. Quitting before the game is over is poor form.

3. If you are a spectator in a game, you have the ability to chat, and have all the other players see your chat. You also have the ability to see the whole map, so that you can see what some players cannot. Some people, therefore, feel the need to give away certain things about what is happening, such as "He's got a big droid army coming straight at you!" or "I'd watch your right flank, if I were you", and even the more innocent "Wow! That's a huge army!". You have been entrusted with a certain responsibility as a spectator, because you can see everything, and say what you want. Giving away things ruins the game, because one of the most important things in warfare is the "fog of war"; it is the player's responsibility to ensure adequate reconnaissance, not the spectator's. If you think something you will say will give something away, don't say anything at all.

4. If you have lost; don't run around with one unit forcing your enemy to find you and kill you; especially if that unit is stealthy or cloaked. This is just frustrating for the victorious player, who instead of getting victory, now has to run about the place to finish of that last unit, whom you are running about the map in an attempt to keep it concealed. Self Destruct the unit (ctrl+d), or run it into your enemy.

5. Any sort of insulting or offensive language occurring during or after the game. If you have lost, be a good loser. Don't scream about how the other player used dirty tricks. If he beat you, he did so fair and square; if you lost to dirty tricks, that is your fault for letting yourself be open to dirty tricks. By the same token, be a good winner. There is no reason for you to gloat, be arrogant, or call the player you have just played a "newbie" or a "noob". This reflects badly on only you. If you think the player you have just played hasn't worked out the game just yet ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ why not teach him a thing or two? You might come back in a few weeks and find a player who'll give you a run for your money, as opposed to chasing away some new player who hasn't worked things out yet.

Most online etiquette just comes down to manners. Don't act in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated yourself, and everyone will have a better time online.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Feb 2006, 05:27

I disagree that it's always bad form to leave when you've lost the game, even if all your stuff isn't crushed. It's fun to play the game when you have a chance at winning still, it's fun to come back against all odds. It is not sit and watch an enemy player crawl HLT into your base while he has the whole map.

I think it depends on the avenue of play and the form of the other player. In a tourny or competition I just want the win and I don't care how I get it. If the other player is willing to bow out while he may still have a chance I'm all for that. Pubbing is a little different though. More competitive players aren't going to sit around and waste thier time for the enemy to finish what they started, they'd much rather just start a new game and hopefully patch the errors they made last time until they are at the top of thier game. I think in general it's unfair to expect for someone to just give you half an hour of thier time so you can march into thier base. If they quit you can still blow up all thier stuff if that's what you want to see.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 21 Feb 2006, 05:52

I disagree, Swiftspear. If you have joined a game, you have agreed to commit your time for the length of the game.

Yes, victory is important, but it isn't everything in a game. Watching stuff blow up is just as fun. Furthermore, many players who quit when they are losing could well come back again, but will never know, because they lost.

I believe it is a matter of ettiquette that you do not quit unless you are 100% confident (and the only way to know is to ask) that your enemy won't care if you quit. Even so, I think it is poor form asking, because I don't know who would answer, "no, stay and let me kill you", and I don't know who would stay if they got that answer.

This was always an easy option with Commander:Ends, because when you were losing, and wanted to give up, you could just go rambo with your commander and try and kill as much as you can, or even force a draw by catching the enemy commander off guard.

wwyyy · Post by **wwyyy** » 21 Feb 2006, 06:18

I prefer my opponent self d's instead of having to hunt down all of his stupid invisible mexes and submarines and scout planes hidden in the corners of the map

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Feb 2006, 06:48

wwyyy wrote:I prefer my opponent self d's instead of having to hunt down all of his stupid invisible mexes and submarines and scout planes hidden in the corners of the map

I agree with this as well.

Zenka · Post by **Zenka** » 21 Feb 2006, 10:19

Well SJ is right on the Go/chess part (As a go player myself, I also surrender when there is no point in continuing).

In spring it's best if you ask. And if the winning player want do kill the remainders let him.
Sometimes lozing players quit, while their team must continue. THIS is very, very, wrong, bad, and selfish to do. The worst case is when you host disided there is no point in going on, while his teammates has diffrent points of view.

As for last cloacked mex on the map. Ofcourse, there ├â┬¼s a point of no continue. Then self-d, or give the last buildings to your ally. (unless your opponents insist of hinting down that as well)

Guessmyname · Post by **Guessmyname** » 21 Feb 2006, 10:26

Felix the Cat wrote:I think there's a big difference between quitting when you're bona-fide dead and quitting when you've taken severe damage but are still viably alive. If you actually just have a comm and a mex and a solar and a LLT left 30 minutes into the game, I see no reason to keep playing - you're obviously dead. However, if you've lost half of your base but still have the other half, then you're not obviously dead, and should not quit.

It's when you and your opponent disagree on your degree of deadness that problems start.

I agree. Once, I was spectating a six player free-for-all. In one corner the green player was new to Spring, and got slightly massacred in a raid. He was promptly left for dead. Fifteen minutes later, and Bertha shells where coming from his direction. He hadn't expanded, but he was the only one with a Bertha, Annihilator and a Fusion/Moho Metal Maker economy. He learnt quick.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 21 Feb 2006, 10:36

wwyyy wrote:I prefer my opponent self d's instead of having to hunt down all of his stupid invisible mexes and submarines and scout planes hidden in the corners of the map

yeah that is just ghey...

However, anyone who has played me will tell you I fight to the end tooth and nail.

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 21 Feb 2006, 11:01

Oh yes, to be 100% clear, I don't mean that I want people to hunt down every last measly mexx.

What I am referring to is someone quitting when, say, their front line has collapsed, but their base is still intact; or if someone gets a Bertha up, and they don't have enough to kill it yet.

I mean, how far do you take it then? I could play an excellent player in OTA, and by the 10 minute mark I'd be in a situation where I'm clearly going to lose; but I won't quit, because I want to present my opponent with a challenge, and I don't want to go down without a fight either.

If you have one or two mexxes remaining, and nothing else; self-destruct. Otherwise, don't - as a matter of ettiquette. I think the difference between "saving your enemy time by getting rid of stragglers" and "fighting to the death" is quite clear to everyone.

Spring RTS Engine

Do Not Quit When You Start Losing

Do Not Quit When You Start Losing