I have stock in CFL /facepalm

[Forboding Angel]

I had a conversation today that is so beyond stupid that I have to repeat it:




It's worth noting that when I said "type of light" what I actually meant was the color of the light put out. CFL bulbs have a tint added to the coating usually that makes them look a bit more warm than the tubes cold bluish light.

[Cheesecan]

'MEERICUH

FUCK YEA!

I've seen several CFLs break, doesn't take more than dropping them from standing height.

But why argue about incandescent and CFL? Get LED lighting instead. Don't buy the cheap Chinese crap ones sold at Walmart, though.

[PicassoCT]

Another topic getting conspi-rancid? I did smell it..

[Forboding Angel]

@cheese, I didn't say they can't break, I said that they are significantly difficult to break when compared with the eggshell breakability of incandescents.

Agreed on LED, that is the real future, but CFLs make an excellently affordable segway (you can get 40 watt CFLs (which are bright as FUCK) at the dollar store).

[dansan]

AFAIK the big difference is, if the light is lit when the bulb breaks or not.
If is is off, it's mostly harmless. If it is lit, the mercury will spread out as gas (or vapor?) and can easily be breathed in - that would be very dangerous, and there has been at least one childs brain literally made juice by that (to lazy to look up the source, but it was a decent report). The security testing in the EU was a bad joke: breaking 2 switched-off bulbs. The whole EU law was literally dictated by Osram and pals (EU has as much lobbyist as US).

That said - there is no reason (except for art galleries etc) to keep using edison-bulbs. The mass-movement-by-law we had in EU (at least in Germany, but I think it was a EU law for whole Europe) that "killed" the edison-bulb was seamless, quick and painless. All that bickering about the light color was gone in a year. There is a big assortment and on all covers/packages of light bulbs (of all types) you have the color written on (in temperature) - so you can choose if you want it "white"/yellow/etc - no problem - an entire continent made the move - *everyone* uses them - no problems!

That said - mercury bulbs are environmental shit! You don't really think everyone brings their old/broken bulbs to the toxic-waste? No. After a while they noticed (doh!) and now you can bring them to everyone who sells them (incl. super markets). But still - very few do :(
And they save far less electricity than you'd think. Ofc they are cheap, because the companies producing them are not paying for their disposal! (Same trick as with atomic energy, but that's a different topic ^.^)

So - do the right thing - jump that technology that was always just meant as a in-between-thing, is dangerous to health and environment and go directly for LEDs. That is what most people with a degree are doing right now here.

They are not only a lot more efficient than mercury-bulbs, but they switch on instantly to full output and their light distribution is simply the best. I tested it in my room with edison, mercury and led bulbs (expensive ones I confess), and the difference is astonishing. The led ones were the only ones lighting each corner of my room equally.

[Cheesecan]

It's stupid. CFLs should have been unilaterally adopted 10+ years ago, when there were no better alternatives. Doing it today is just backward. They should be banned right alongside incandescent lighting. Only allow LED. Sure, they are expensive, but they are clearly the easiest to dispose (and require less disposal due to longer lifespan).

I agree about disposal cost part being a black hole. But it's that way with a lot of things. Companies should certainly pay for end-of-life. In fact companies should be reigned in hard and beat like redheaded-step children, they have clearly become hazardous to long-term sustainability on the planet in this and countless other areas.
In fact all governments should be abolished in favor of direct democracy. Down with the EU, that's the least democratic institution I can think of. Laws being made by some far away dictator. What we have today is just polyarchy. The gap between the rich and poor has never been larger. Reigning megacorporations in and progressive taxation is a must if we want to restore fairness to society and responsible ownership.

Picasso: Do I win the conspiracy badge now?

[knorke]

arguing on facebook is like eating potataos.
even if you win you must plant new potatos.

[SinbadEV]

Nobody every reads more than seven words.

[CarRepairer]

And they save far less electricity than you'd think.

Of course. Nearly every light in my home is CFL. I've been using CFLs for the better part of 9 years, in three different homes in two different countries. The technology has improved over time, but there's no getting around the fact that they are terrible for high traffic areas, such as bathrooms or any intermediate rooms like hallways, where they get turned on and off. The ballasts have a limited number of cycles before they "burn out" and the whole light is gone (unlike office lighting where the ballast is separate from the tube). And for years these lights have run several dollars apiece. They save money on the electric bill but they definitely take a huge chunk of the budget when you buy them and replace them. I've replaced dozens. I personally believe that the savings are quite slim if you take everything into account. I use my brain and don't buy into greasy salesman tactic numbers like you'll save 1000% on electricity. "You can't afford NOT to buy this!"

'MEERICUH

an entire continent made the move - *everyone* uses them - no problems!

That said - mercury bulbs are environmental shit! You don't really think everyone brings their old/broken bulbs to the toxic-waste?

I've broken maybe two in a decade. I always recycle them at electronic stores. The issue brought up in this thread is not whether or not they are toxic but the common mockery of the American ideal of free market in stark contrast to regulations and EU style bureaucracy. Freedom to make your own choices as you see fit, whether you want to buy incandescents, CFLs, LEDs or oil lamps. Because no one is ever going to agree on everything, why have a free market at all? If the government knows the single one and only choice that's best, why not have them distribute the light bulbs to each home and save us the trouble of buying them?

That said - there is no reason (except for art galleries etc) to keep using edison-bulbs.

But wait, it is now illegal to manufacture them. So how would the art gallery even have the choice to buy them? As I mentioned earlier I have a few old lightbulbs left in my home. There are certain enclosures that cannot fit CFLs no matter how small (and I do use small CFLs in some cases like table lamps that use the mini sockets). The enclosure within my microwave that lights the top of my stove holds two 40-watt lightbulbs. I unscrewed one to save energy. What about the day they burn out? No choices for me? The light fixture by my front door cannot fit any CFL I've tried, so of the three 25 watt lightbulbs in it, I unscrewed two, since it's just there to light the entryway when coming home. I hope LED lighting will pull through before I lose my other options.

That said I once found a great deal on 3 LED bulbs for $19 at a giant wholesale chain here. 4w equivalent of 40w incandescent. They have their faults. There's a very noticeable flicker (similar to the less advanced CFL) and the light is quite ugly. Not to mention there's some electric leakage when using an LED bulb connected to a fixture using an illuminated lightswitch - the bulb never shuts off completely but still emits a dim glow! Great unintended side effect for bathrooms, not so much for the rest of the house.

This all comes back to choices. It's not about which lightbulb is better. It's about who gets to decide which lightbulb is better for the consumer. The consumer himself, or his government.

[Jools]

arguing on facebook is like eating potataos.
even if you win you must plant new potatos.

Interesting analogy. I would instead say arguing of facebook is like mud wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

[dansan]

CFLs [..] are terrible for high traffic areas, such as bathrooms or any intermediate rooms like hallways

Yes - I use the remaining incandescents I have left in those areas.

Freedom to make your own choices

"Own choices" exist only for those that actually investigate the things they buy - and can afford them. Most people choose exactly what they are told to. I don't see a general difference between following government rhetoric or commercial advertisements - none have anything to do with freedom.

That said - there is no reason (except for art galleries etc) to keep using edison-bulbs.

But wait, it is now illegal to manufacture them. So how would the art gallery even have the choice to buy them?

There are exclusions from the law for certain types of companies / scenarios (incl. the whole art sector).

That said I once found a great deal on 3 LED bulbs for $19 at a giant wholesale chain here. 4w equivalent of 40w incandescent. They have their faults.

Hmm.. no wonder... the LEDs I'm talking about cost 10-50€ each.

This all comes back to choices. It's not about which lightbulb is better. It's about who gets to decide which lightbulb is better for the consumer. The consumer himself, or his government.

"better for the consumer" isn't necessarily "better for the consumer". While cheap gasoline seems "better for the consumer", it actually kills his (and everybody else) health... so it's not clear to me if it is really better or not, and if the government isn't maybe making the better choice for the consumer by protecting him in the long run.

[yuritch]

About edison-bulbs being illegal to manufacture: last year Russia banned 100W bulbs, so now they have bulbs rated at 95W (with a +/- 10% allowed error). Needless to say old 100W fit just nicely into that range, so they are the same bulbs, but rebranded.

Another solution: the bulb can be named 'electric infrared heater' and not a bulb (since technically it emits more in infrared than in visible light), which also circumvents the ban. AFAIK same is done in EU (google 'heatball').

[CarRepairer]

About edison-bulbs being illegal to manufacture: last year Russia banned 100W bulbs, so now they have bulbs rated at 95W (with a +/- 10% allowed error). Needless to say old 100W fit just nicely into that range, so they are the same bulbs, but rebranded.

Another solution: the bulb can be named 'electric infrared heater' and not a bulb (since technically it emits more in infrared than in visible light), which also circumvents the ban. AFAIK same is done in EU (google 'heatball').

Both hilarious examples of the invisible hand dodging and weaving to avoid govt regulations. I couldn't help but lol.

CarRepairer wrote:
This all comes back to choices. It's not about which lightbulb is better. It's about who gets to decide which lightbulb is better for the consumer. The consumer himself, or his government.
"better for the consumer" isn't necessarily "better for the consumer". While cheap gasoline seems "better for the consumer", it actually kills his (and everybody else) health... so it's not clear to me if it is really better or not, and if the government isn't maybe making the better choice for the consumer by protecting him in the long run.

Likening the government to a caring parent is an analogy I don't agree with, because a parent is wiser than their child, while that is not usually the case with elected (and unelected) officials.

To take your gasoline example, go ahead and heavily tax it. The rich will continue to drive while the poor forfeit their commute (many places have poor public transportation options). I don't find that situation to be good. Unless it's something that needs to be completely banned because it's an absolute hazard that has no benefits, there is no need to bother. Gasoline doesn't apply.

So much energy and effort is wasted on rules and regulations, when all is needed is to build a better product and the problem solves itself. I look forward to the day when LED bulbs are superior, and that will be soon. I enjoy using the three I have and my dim glow in the bathroom is a reminder of what's to come.

[knorke]

Another solution: the bulb can be named 'electric infrared heater' and not a bulb (since technically it emits more in infrared than in visible light), which also circumvents the ban. AFAIK same is done in EU (google 'heatball').

No, it is not possible to use such loophole. Heatballs were a satire project.

Government (or similar instances) is always needed to regulate the market. It is naive to think that "the best product will naturally come out on top."

[zwzsg]

Especially when the product is best for the buyer wallet, yet worst for environment.

[klapmongool]

Sure, sometimes something 'better' can be ignored in a market but I´m not sure that this is the case for lighting.

What if the abolishment of the old bulbs and favoring the energy saving kind at that time only slowed down LED development (maybe manufacturers had to invest more into power saving bulbs than they would have otherwise, having less left over for LED)? That is one of the options the bureaucrats weren't considering.

In this case, I think, the disadvantages of the old bulbs don't even justify abolishment. Do they kill people? Do they cause earthquakes? Do they summon daemons? No, they use more energy.

Also the energy saving bulbs suck considerably more than advertised. They should be good for 10 times as long as the old bulbs and yet I've seen so many break way too early it isn't funny. We got scammed tbh.

[dansan]

Likening the government to a caring parent is an analogy I don't agree with, because a parent is wiser than their child, while that is not usually the case with elected (and unelected) officials.

I agree - but that was not the thing I wanted to say.
I wanted to point out, that consumers don't necessarily know "what's best for them", and thus "consumers choice" isn't necessarily a good thing. That means, that if you are "pro consumer choice", you have to explain why - as much as a discussion participant should explain why he thinks something should be government regulated.

[dimm]

Which of these bulbs wont attract bugs?

Support "consumer" education. Its the best answer weather you need the consumers to make a better purchase, catch the government making stupid decisions, or make Facebook less stupid.

[AF]

Incandescent Bulbs arent being made anymore

ignoring 95Watt bulbs etc, the US regulations don't ban incandescents, they ban bulbs that are below a certain efficiency threshold. 45Watt incandescents are still legal for purchase and will be for quite a while

Nextgen Incandescents

Instead, why has nobody mentioned Halogen bulbs? Tungsten incandescents filled with Halogen gas, they're superior to ordinary incandescents, last longer, and run cheaper, but rely on the same core principle at heart.

Perhaps it's because of an undeserved reputation. I was always told they were expensive to run as a child. Maybe because those bulbs were 900watt halogen heaters...

Incandescents weren't the golden bliss people make them out to be

Aside from expensive, it was bloody annoying to have a lamp fall over and the innards of the bulb break, giving you a bulb that looks good but doesn't work. The weight/glass of them too, should one fall out of its socket or you hit the bulb and the wire swings back on you, that hurts a lot more than a CFL.

Regulation & What's Best

UK lighting power consumption has fallen by almost a third since 1997, and the banned bulbs are horrendously innefficient.

There are far more efficient incandescent bulbs out there than the ones you're being told you can't buy, nevermind CFL bulbs.

CFL Bulbs

When they were introduced, and when regulations pushed them forward, the technology was very young, and aside from the newly reduced prices and the massive power savings, yes, they were crap. Bulbs would be faulty, the light would be cold, they would ramp up in intensity over the space of a minute rather than near instantly.

Since then they've improved dramatically, approaching and sometimes besting incandescents. The problem is not that current gen CFL is rubbish, it's that people manufactured so many old CFLs that they're still on the market, and nobody knows how to tell them apart.

Why Should Government Care?

Nothing to do with environmental factors. It's political. Lights use power. Power costs money. Power needs to be generated. Power is generated in power plants.

There appears to be a rumbling back noise of potential energy crisis coming. If you're the minister for power generation, which sounds more appealing? A £10bn Nuclear power plant project? Several coal fired powerplants? A controversial hydropower project and environmental protests? All of which taking years and opposition from locals.

Or a few regulations that reduce domestic lighting, reducing the need for capacity rather than forcing you to increase it? Making bulbs more efficient is cheaper than building extra power plants, and it forces technology investment and research, which drives other economic factors.

[AF]

Because it deserved its own post:

If a CFL Bulb goes out, and you turn it on, it release mercury vapor

Bullshit, complete and utter bullshit. Absolute nonsense. You sir have failed the internets, how terribly gullible.

The worst case scenario:

A bulb breaks, not just "it won't turn on", but the bulb is smashed, and the innards of the bulb are release, released directly above and on to you, you heve full direct 100% exposure to the entire contents of the bulb! So what happens?

Firstly the mercury contents of the room are higher than safety limits in industrial applications. Note that these limits were not designed for brief exposure in somebodies hallway, they were designed for grown adults working in those conditions for extended periods of time. Will a broken CFL bulb induce high levels of mercury that persist at full levels for years on end?

Should the bulb simply fail at the end of its life, I very much doubt any mercury of any kind will be released, as the bulb casing would still be intact.

How much mercury is in a CFL equivalant to a 60Watt incandescent? About 0.04 to 0.7 milligrams would be released in the first 24 hours, after which it would drop off. Most of this would be in the initial breakage, unless the room was poorly vented. Most of this would not happen if the bulb pieces were then wrapped in paper and put in a bin.

As for vapor fullstop, mercury in a CFL bulb is only in vapor form when the bulb is turned on and lit.

Since 2008 most CFL bulbs meet and best the recommended mercury limits of 2.25mg, and when released into the atmosphere, the mercury reacts forming less toxic chemicals over tim

It could be argued a seafood diet is more dangerous than sniffing a CFL bulb where mercury is concerned, though the other stuff in a CFL bulb would likely do more damage to your lungs, or the gas in a Halogen bulb