Bitcoin mining made easy

[cheapsheep]

Weird discussion guys.

I think it is pretty simple:

There is a fixed total possible amount of bitcoins (21 million). Since you can make smaller portions of a bitcoin like milibitcoin etc (and there is no technological limit to this?) you potentially have an unlimited amount of 'coins'. The fact that the total amount of bitcoins doesn't change only makes this system more fucked up. This just means that all the ´value´ that the world is going to subscribe to bitcoin in the future will go straight into the pockets of the bitcoin owners.
...

So your point is, by converting euros to cents, you are increasing the money supply by 100. You are confused, and you are also in the camp of people who believe that the Bitcoin system is based on tokens.

Having no understanding of the system do not make your criticism pertinent. But it seems that this thread is not really about pertinence, its rather about circlejerking...

BTW, there is a limit in divisibility, 10^-8. I'm sure you'll find something "very interesting" and relevant to say about that...

I'm sure that whatever I say about anything you will be able to find a way to ignore the most important things in my post and insult everyone in the thread.

Go ahead and believe what you want. I'm out.

I did not "ignore the most important things in your post". I explained why the first part of your post is completely wrong because it is based on incorrect beliefs.

The second part of your post is a political rant and it is addressed to varikonniemi. Is this the "most important thing in your post" ? Sorry but I'm answering technical questions first. I don't think it is wise to enter political debate (regarding Bitcoin) with someone who doesn't understand how the system works first.

If you want to take a political stance, its your right... such as "I don't like gold jewelry because I don't own a fair share of the world's gold". Of course early adopters are favored... its a bit like how early internet users got to buy nice domain names. Does this make the internet a less useful tool, or something you prefer not to use because "it's not fair"? If you don't see any value in the Bitcoin system, just don't use it... it is quite simple.

[Peet]

Bitcoin is passe, the real visionaries have moved on to more sensible alternatives

[Anarchid]

Dogecoin is lol, especially for selling premines. Also, is unlikely to ever be used for other purposes.

Now, sexcoin? That's exactly for trading for goods! And maybe services.

[klapmongool]

...

Guess I'm not out yet. Just have to correct this and I'm out of this thread for real.

Just because you fail to understand the discussion doesn't mean I don't understand it. As I said, insulting people whose point of view you are incapable of understanding doesn't help to ever do so.

[smoth]

Why don't you just read the paper or, you know, the BTC wikipedia page?

I found the wiki wanting. There are other sites but it felt like many of them were confused and inconsistent. So rather than sifting through it all, I felt it best to ask questions from someone who had already investigated it. I understand some concepts of it but didn't really have my last remaining pieces to understand it, for that I needed a human.

[FireStorm_]

I also appreciate someone bringing arguments to the table to possibly argue a hypothesis, in stead of telling people they could get to the information that will convince them themselves.

That said, I think my understanding, and slightly my fascination, has grown a bitcoin.

[knorke]

CNN: Can Bitcoin replace PayPal?

"Tax implications and potential regulation are some obstacles we face ... the other issue is that perhaps [Bitcoin] is not quite ready for mainstream consumers just yet.
...
until the volatility calms down, the use of it as a payment method -- to buy shopping, a house, a car, send children to university for example -- is going to be very, very limited.
...
People's Bank of China placed a ban on financial institutions handling the money after stipulating that the virtual cash had no legal status.
With yet another hurdle now in place for Bitcoin, Cook believes its widespread adoption is a little optimistic.

Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word "no."

But even if yes: Imo using bitcoins only as paypal replacement would basically mean the larger idea has failed.

[varikonniemi]

The interesting part is that such a question is being posed in mainstream media. I'm not really interested in their analysis :)

It can become a paypal replacement only once colored coins are implemented, so we have the capability to transfer USD&EUR. But already today Bitcoin has so much more to offer than what paypal brings to the table.

[Anarchid]

Unsure if 10 minutes block period would help that very much.

[cheapsheep]

Unsure if 10 minutes block period would help that very much.

I don't think it is a problem when you buy non-digital goods. You can easily afford to wait 6 confirmations because of all the overhead in shipping & delivery.

For (expensive) digital goods, this is probably not true. And for cheap digital goods (such as 1 song, or pay for 1 pay-walled article), you may take the risk and proceed with unconfirmed transactions.

But the limit (with current parameters) of about 7 transactions per second for the Bitcoin network may be a problem, especially if we see lots of micro-transactions.

[varikonniemi]

That transaction limit will be increased once we start approaching it. Some people think the storage requirement for the whole database will grow unmanageable, but when HDD space costs 100$/2TB i don't see that being a problem.

[Kloot]

That's cute. Now rub the wool out of your eyes for a second and ask yourself these questions:

1) does every mobile computing device have TB's worth of storage?
2) does every mobile computing device have the connection to keep in sync with GB's worth of transactions per day if bitcoin really enters the mainstream?
3) so what about smartphones? wouldn't those be the ideal device to run a bitcoin wallet app on for 99.99% of all users?
4) should each mobile phone just be a thin client then?
5) given that bitcoin is based on a model of decentralized anti-trust, are masses of thin clients good for the health of the network?
6) can there be large-scale adoption of bitcoin for small everyday transactions (like groceries and whatever else) which comprise the majority of all trade without thin clients?
7) etc

Blind proselytising evangelicals that refuse to do any critical thinking are as bad as any tech-ignorant economist. It's also highly amusing to me that the positive points you've emphasized so far ("you could have made 25% ROI!!!") are for the most part related to bitcoin's value speculation craze instead of the technology itself and fall under the exact same category as what those evil establishment bankers whom you claim to hate were doing to cause a global financial crisis.

[smoth]

omg kloot, that was a powerslam, were you holding that back for a while or what?

[cheapsheep]

Blind proselytising evangelicals that refuse to do any critical thinking are as bad as any tech-ignorant economist.

:)

I'll try to answer your points:
1) to be fair, it will remain in the tens of GB for quite some time => (barely) possible on a high end smartphone whose storage will be mostly dedicated to blockchain storage
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size
2) bandwidth is not really a problem but if you are purely on "3G" (mobile), you'll exceed a 1GB data plan every month
3) yes but 1) and 2) and battery life will suffer when fully-validating :)
4) it should not, to remain in the "bitcoin model", but given constraints, it has to
5) it weakens the decentralized no-trust model... but there may be an acceptable solution (I'd have to research more...)
6) no, and i don't think bitcoin is very good for that anyway
7) yes its not perfect for every situation

Note about item 6:
To pay a drink in a pub, its probably ok because it is cheap, and you stay there (so you won't cheat). For groceries/shops, since you leave just after payment, shop owner will want you to wait for at least 1 confirmation... nobody wants to stay for 10 minute for a payment confirmation. In shops with slow CC processor, even 1min processing can cause a mess during peak hours.
Maybe bitcoin payment processors (such as bitpay) could add new services for their customers, such as an insurance that would cost a % fee, and accept payment up to a limit without confirmation.

Note that I don't know exactly what you are calling a "thin-client". It could be a "real" bitcoin client with less processing (such as https://github.com/schildbach/bitcoin-wallet), and it could be a client for an online wallet (which would be a full node), so you trust someone with your bitcoins.

[knorke]

The interesting part is that such a question is being posed in mainstream media. I'm not really interested in their analysis :)

But look who wrote the article: https://twitter.com/LaurenMoorhouse
Freelance digital storyteller for @cnni | Ambitious baker
For wider acceptance some media buzz is needed but imo such journalism is only a small step above the most important twerking moments of 2013
That CNN publishes does not make it better...

I think scalability is "just" a technical problem that could eventually be overcome.
"Bitcoin was designed to support lightweight clients that only process small parts of the block chain"
As I understand the idea is that those iphone clients could not run the network alone but since there will still be larger computers that is not a problem. Altough "nodes in the network primarily running on high end servers" kind of seems to go against the decentralized idea.

Maybe bitcoin payment processors (such as bitpay) could add new services for their customers, such as an insurance that would cost a % fee, and accept payment up to a limit without confirmation.

Effectively becoming a bank, which would be threat #2 from
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... ks#p551075 :
Bitcoins are supposed to be decentral but currently bitcoin exchange sites/bourses are still needed. They might become bigger and do all the evil things that paypal/banks have been accused of.

[varikonniemi]

kloot: Good thing your first part was in the form of questions. And knorke already cleared it up for you.

Are you really that surprised to find a mention of ROI in a thread about MAKING Bitcoins? I have at no point emphasized ROI or the current valuation (except the one time when i recommended to buy since i was sure it will boom). In fact i have said the valuation is almost irrelevant for Bitcoin as a whole.

Comparing to banks is just silly, they exist in a strictly controlled environment, Bitcoin exists in the free markets. Creating shit in controlled environments is criminal. Creating shit in the free markets is crucial. This is where fair innovation stems from, and the free markets are what decides what is an innovation.

[smoth]

npr: Already Down 50 Percent, Will Bitcoin Bite The Dust?

for real?

[zwzsg]

Rate curve should always be looked at from a distance. Last month it it went up by +500%. Now it's down -50%. But that's still thrice more than it was worth last month: http://blockchain.info/en/charts/market-price

Maybe it's crashing, maybe it's just settling on a saner value.

[Kloot]

I'll try to answer your points:

The intention wasn't really to get answers, I already know them. It is more my desire to question the fanatics claiming BITCOIN IS THE GREATEST TECHNICAL REVOLUTION IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND AND WILL BE THE SALVATION OF US ALL.

6) no, and i don't think bitcoin is very good for that anyway
7) yes its not perfect for every situation

The important part is to get everyone to realize this. Bitcoin is a tool with certain known (and no doubt as-yet unknown) applications but also clear technical/social limitations in its present form.

Note about item 6:
To pay a drink in a pub, its probably ok because it is cheap, and you stay there (so you won't cheat). For groceries/shops, since you leave just after payment, shop owner will want you to wait for at least 1 confirmation... nobody wants to stay for 10 minute for a payment confirmation. In shops with slow CC processor, even 1min processing can cause a mess during peak hours.
Maybe bitcoin payment processors (such as bitpay) could add new services for their customers, such as an insurance that would cost a % fee, and accept payment up to a limit without confirmation.

For most purchases the insurance premium to cover N-confirmation latency would probably be unacceptable, limiting real-world utility even more.

Note that I don't know exactly what you are calling a "thin-client". It could be a "real" bitcoin client with less processing (such as https://github.com/schildbach/bitcoin-wallet), and it could be a client for an online wallet (which would be a full node), so you trust someone with your bitcoins.

By "thin" I mean any client that does not pull in the blockchain at all or at most a pruned subset of it but manages a local wallet.

As for trusting someone else (like a large pool of full nodes centrally managed by some formal entity) with your coins, we have a name for the traditional institutions that amongst other things provide such a safekeeping service and it starts with 'b'... oh wait.

I think scalability is "just" a technical problem that could eventually be overcome.
"Bitcoin was designed to support lightweight clients that only process small parts of the block chain"

Of course it is a technical problem, the point is that these problems exist (bitcoin only being the first iteration of the cryptocurrency concept) and have to be thought about carefully instead of taking everything on blind faith.

As I understand the idea is that those iphone clients could not run the network alone but since there will still be larger computers that is not a problem. Altough "nodes in the network primarily running on high end servers" kind of seems to go against the decentralized idea.

Yes, that would already be one reason why true decentralization is impossible. Not all clients are equal, computational power will be clustered (which is also nice to handle the inevitable DDOS attacks), fast-forward and suddenly transactions can be controlled by powerful enough mining subgroups just like in the systems of old.

kloot: Good thing your first part was in the form of questions. And knorke already cleared it up for you.

Good thing I wasn't asking for clarification. Arrogant much?

Are you really that surprised to find a mention of ROI in a thread about MAKING Bitcoins?

I am more surprised to find no mention of *L*OI and the "heading for the moon" attitude still prevailing after seeing so many fluctuations in bitcoin's value since the second half of this thread.

I have at no point emphasized ROI or the current valuation (except the one time when i recommended to buy since i was sure it will boom). In fact i have said the valuation is almost irrelevant for Bitcoin as a whole.

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 94#p550394
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 74#p550174
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 15#p550515
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 91#p550891
...

No emphasis on ROI at all, no.

If you ever want bitcoin to become a stable mainstream product (a "way of doing business which in the real world may increase your profit by 50%" in your words), valuation is *extremely* relevant or the technology will stay in its current niche role and end up a historical curiosity that made a handful of people extremely rich for no real effort and at no real risk.

Comparing to banks is just silly, they exist in a strictly controlled environment, Bitcoin exists in the free markets. Creating shit in controlled environments is criminal. Creating shit in the free markets is crucial. This is where fair innovation stems from, and the markets are what decides what is an innovation.

1) unless you've been living under a rock for the past five years and ignored all the news completely (which I wouldn't put past you given your *clearly* well-balanced mature world views on display here) I can't even begin to comprehend how you can declare with a straight face that the environment in which banks operate today is "strictly controlled", thanks to neolib figures like Thatcher and Reagan pushing for total market deregulation decades earlier
2) So what crucial "shit" (in terms of tangible innovative real-world goods that have actual value) are you creating with your ROI gambles that banks didn't with theirs, exactly? What and where is the qualitative difference?

[cheapsheep]

The intention wasn't really to get answers, I already know them. It is more my desire to question the fanatics claiming BITCOIN IS THE GREATEST TECHNICAL REVOLUTION IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND AND WILL BE THE SALVATION OF US ALL.

It was obvious, but its not for you that I took the time to answer... it is for the "spectators" who may have been left without answers if you really expected the fanatics to provide them.

Of course bitcoin will not solve every problem of the world, but it is very elegant