Edit: ya know what? Fuckit. Core can keep getting nerfed. Fine, whatever. All the good arm players are listened to more often anyway, because there are more of them. So what's the point in fighting it?
Steve: Conceited means stuck up. Full of yourself, etc.
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Forboding Angel
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Last edited by Forboding Angel on 03 Feb 2006, 17:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Forboding Angel
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Hehe, why are people saying Core is weaker? Yeah, brawlers beat Rapiers... But morty beats (if played correctly) any arm lvl 2 kbot unit in a cost-for-cost scenario (At least it did at 1.35 AA when I tested). So does the sumo in fact (specially when you have 3+ of them moving together). The Goliath was made closer to the bulldog in strength (its still tougher and does roughly 15-20% more damage) but its still better. Its a bit slower though so thats fine...I can see a *small* boost to the goliath but I think its pretty close to what it should be...keep in mind, that in 1.35...10 goliaths vs 12 bulldogs (cost for cost back then) had 8 goliaths survive and 0 bulldogs... Right now I think it ends up being like 2-3 goliaths survive and 0 bulldogs (not positive, haven't tested in awhile).
Core is slower than ARM, thats true. But core also has a better unit mix IMO...Tremors rule and levelers are a great combo with them. Definitely better than the MERL. Don't even get me started on the bladewings, hehe. Super-cheap and the best level 1 air unit in the game. Its fantastic at base-defense and in eliminating enemy armies in the "battlezone"...its not good at base-offense though. Oh, and its a dirt-cheap unit to make! I can't say how often i've seen decimator throw a few bladewings, disable a large attacking force of thuds/hammers and then clean them up with a few units. highly effective. At the very least, it forces opponents to put anti-air with every force-mixture they make.
When I play Core, I do perfectly fine. I certainly don't feel gimped. The moho exploiter is a great core-only unit too btw. The only reason I consider myself an ARM player is that I like speed and flexibility in my units. The other reason I usually go ARM is that IMO, ARM has a better economy potential. Lower costs, faster units, better/faster at making buildings.
-Drexion
Core is slower than ARM, thats true. But core also has a better unit mix IMO...Tremors rule and levelers are a great combo with them. Definitely better than the MERL. Don't even get me started on the bladewings, hehe. Super-cheap and the best level 1 air unit in the game. Its fantastic at base-defense and in eliminating enemy armies in the "battlezone"...its not good at base-offense though. Oh, and its a dirt-cheap unit to make! I can't say how often i've seen decimator throw a few bladewings, disable a large attacking force of thuds/hammers and then clean them up with a few units. highly effective. At the very least, it forces opponents to put anti-air with every force-mixture they make.
When I play Core, I do perfectly fine. I certainly don't feel gimped. The moho exploiter is a great core-only unit too btw. The only reason I consider myself an ARM player is that I like speed and flexibility in my units. The other reason I usually go ARM is that IMO, ARM has a better economy potential. Lower costs, faster units, better/faster at making buildings.
-Drexion
Drex, 1.35 was a long way away 
I can agree with you on some points, but overall, I would have to say that Core is being nerfed far more than it should ever have been; the trend started even beore 1.40 ish.
Honestly, I like 1.42 balance well- the only change I would suggest would be the increased Zeus armor a bit.
Oh, one more thing- Why are Orcones and Krogoths and the biggest SuperUnits transportable with the L2 Air transports? >_> It makes absolutely no sense. How can the Orcone and Juggernaught be transportable but the Scuttle can't be transportable?
And why remove the Helios and other adv core air units?
One more thing: Remember AMD's amphibious trnasport tanks? They were great. Why not add them to the Undersea Complex? :)
I can agree with you on some points, but overall, I would have to say that Core is being nerfed far more than it should ever have been; the trend started even beore 1.40 ish.
Honestly, I like 1.42 balance well- the only change I would suggest would be the increased Zeus armor a bit.
Oh, one more thing- Why are Orcones and Krogoths and the biggest SuperUnits transportable with the L2 Air transports? >_> It makes absolutely no sense. How can the Orcone and Juggernaught be transportable but the Scuttle can't be transportable?
And why remove the Helios and other adv core air units?
One more thing: Remember AMD's amphibious trnasport tanks? They were great. Why not add them to the Undersea Complex? :)
I like arm cuz I'm all about speed. Core is all about power.Aun wrote:I asked a few arm players about why they play as arm.
The general response was that arm is more versatile and core has no middle fighting unit; it just goes between extremes.
Core has the better end game units hands down, but I prefer speed over power any day.
Flashes and zippers are usefull units for the whole game.
I do play core every now and then, but I just love arm. I really can't say any other reason. I just played them for 5 yrs cuz it was the default setting haha. But if it was for one reason...its the flash.
FOr some of those settings, I would like to know the mav buff. Mav's should have short range to counteract the damage they do. You get these suckers close to tanks and they will own them. If anything, perhaps just a small boost to range and make them heavier so they don't go flying around as much when they get hit by gols and banishers.
@Drex: Yes, lv 1 units are extremely deadly in the right hands. Even when lv 2 and 3 are out and about, lv 1 still have their place. I remember owning 5 kargeneths with nothing but sams before they got the nerf. Rockos and Thuds are great. Flashes eat away HP like popcorn. Stumpies in mass numbers own, period. They can eat anni lines in a snap, and even some larger tanks. Surround and destroy. That tactic works for many units. 3 skeets can kill a millenium. Don't believe me? Try it. For beginners, try 4 skeets.
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Forboding Angel
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Drex and forbidin, you guys don't play core enough to give an educated opinion imo.
You guys play core once in a while. Not all the time like some of us do.
Arm has better l2 defence placements. Have you ever taken not od th ddm rage as opposed to the anni's range? Core has the exploiter. Too bad that it wrecks your economy if someone keeps throwing peewees at it (it stops producing metal when it fires)...
Regardless, this discussion will never go anywhere because Caydr (not slamming you dude, just saying the facts):
1. Rarely plays it
2. When he does play it, he plays as arm.
3. There are very few core players, and there is no way that we are going to look like we know what we are talking about because there are so many arm players saying the exact opposite.
BTW guy, I do believe that the changes to the hurricane were made to try to offset the helios being taken away.
Maybe we should all jsut start playing arm instead of being die hards. If the other side has most of the advantages then why do we still buck a stacked deck? Does anyone here notice that core players are somewhat hard to come by compared to the amount of arm players? Doesn't that tell anyone here anything?
You guys play core once in a while. Not all the time like some of us do.
Arm has better l2 defence placements. Have you ever taken not od th ddm rage as opposed to the anni's range? Core has the exploiter. Too bad that it wrecks your economy if someone keeps throwing peewees at it (it stops producing metal when it fires)...
Regardless, this discussion will never go anywhere because Caydr (not slamming you dude, just saying the facts):
1. Rarely plays it
2. When he does play it, he plays as arm.
3. There are very few core players, and there is no way that we are going to look like we know what we are talking about because there are so many arm players saying the exact opposite.
BTW guy, I do believe that the changes to the hurricane were made to try to offset the helios being taken away.
Maybe we should all jsut start playing arm instead of being die hards. If the other side has most of the advantages then why do we still buck a stacked deck? Does anyone here notice that core players are somewhat hard to come by compared to the amount of arm players? Doesn't that tell anyone here anything?
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Forboding Angel
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Forbidin, arm vs core. Not arm vs arm.forbidin wrote:@Drex: Yes, lv 1 units are extremely deadly in the right hands. Even when lv 2 and 3 are out and about, lv 1 still have their place. I remember owning 5 kargeneths with nothing but sams before they got the nerf. Rockos and Thuds are great. Flashes eat away HP like popcorn. Stumpies in mass numbers own, period. They can eat anni lines in a snap, and even some larger tanks. Surround and destroy. That tactic works for many units. 3 skeets can kill a millenium. Don't believe me? Try it. For beginners, try 4 skeets.
geez, doesn't this just prove my point?
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Forboding Angel
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How about this, Forboding. When I can play again starting this Sunday, i'll play core exclusively for awhile. Lets see if I start agreeing with you that core is weak compared to ARM =). Sound fair?
You may notice that I did not go into detail into what its like to play core in my previous post, exactly because like you mentioned, my experience is not extensive. I do believe the "general" outlines I laid are true though. Also, comparing unit vs unit does not require knowledge of ARM or CORE, its a simple test in a game where you have cost-vs-cost for each side. I'm still of the belief that the greatest disadvantage CORE has over ARM is the economic potential.
Btw, the annihilator isn't THAT good(its not bad by any means)...yeah its got a good range but its a very weak building. The DDM has 3x the hitpoints to compensate for the range. Its easy to overwhelm a line of 3-5 annihilators with goliaths/sumo and pyros for example.
-Drexion
You may notice that I did not go into detail into what its like to play core in my previous post, exactly because like you mentioned, my experience is not extensive. I do believe the "general" outlines I laid are true though. Also, comparing unit vs unit does not require knowledge of ARM or CORE, its a simple test in a game where you have cost-vs-cost for each side. I'm still of the belief that the greatest disadvantage CORE has over ARM is the economic potential.
Btw, the annihilator isn't THAT good(its not bad by any means)...yeah its got a good range but its a very weak building. The DDM has 3x the hitpoints to compensate for the range. Its easy to overwhelm a line of 3-5 annihilators with goliaths/sumo and pyros for example.
-Drexion
hello again... Big steve here, hmmmmmmmm...
Core are not weak, sumo and golly need a boost and we need to keep helios.
Me and drex tested k bots core v arm a while back... Mortys owned all... if you micro them - sumos also took very few losses against all of arms kbots.
Saying core are weak is just simply not true, slow yes, weak no.
bladewings - awesome can use all game, termites are slow but pack a punch and can take one (AT)... instigators on mass are awesome... and the croc... the most underused core unit, is awesome... superpowered stumpy, faster and deals lots more of damage, yet no one ever uses them, you have the advanced crawling bomb, banishers take out brawlers so well and hence double up as aa, I could go on and on there are loads of awesome core units,
I simply play arm because I prefer the faster style of play not because I think core is hugely disadvantaged, maybe if you ever played arm F.A you might be able to make a more informed judgement as to the balance issues between arm and core hehe and you would realise that l2 def srtructures are not all they're cracked up to be...
Bring on the Flames!!! hehe
also the changelog caydr just posted, apart from the obvious helio thing... cores getting some love! what ya complain about? :)
Core are not weak, sumo and golly need a boost and we need to keep helios.
Me and drex tested k bots core v arm a while back... Mortys owned all... if you micro them - sumos also took very few losses against all of arms kbots.
Saying core are weak is just simply not true, slow yes, weak no.
bladewings - awesome can use all game, termites are slow but pack a punch and can take one (AT)... instigators on mass are awesome... and the croc... the most underused core unit, is awesome... superpowered stumpy, faster and deals lots more of damage, yet no one ever uses them, you have the advanced crawling bomb, banishers take out brawlers so well and hence double up as aa, I could go on and on there are loads of awesome core units,
I simply play arm because I prefer the faster style of play not because I think core is hugely disadvantaged, maybe if you ever played arm F.A you might be able to make a more informed judgement as to the balance issues between arm and core hehe and you would realise that l2 def srtructures are not all they're cracked up to be...
Bring on the Flames!!! hehe
also the changelog caydr just posted, apart from the obvious helio thing... cores getting some love! what ya complain about? :)
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Forboding Angel
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Steve, remember that when you met me I was a star. I used to play arm exclusively, a long time ago, and like you with core, I do occasionally play arm.
The reason I stopped playing arm in the first place was because they were so easy to win with. I don't consider playing with arm that much of a challenge, because I don't have to change my strategy nearly as much as I have to when I play core.
Again to prove another point, steve, remember in that game yesterday? What did my teammates send at the 3 of you guys? The guy on my right sent 5 bulldogs, once. The guy on the hill in the back sent 1 swarm of banishers. The rest of the burden I shouldered, and from what I could tell, you were doing most of the attacking from your team.
THe bitch about the whole deal was that I couldn't attack because there was no one to back me up, and if I stayed where I was I got chewed up. If I had been able to build 2 anni's (which given my resources, while very low, 20 freakers tend to build anthing fast, would have been doable) things in the middle would have gone quite differently.
Would a ddm have done me more good than that exploiter? Hardly. DDM's suck and thats why I don't use them. The exploiters and vipers are the only decent defensive structures that core has imo. Arm sentinals are much more effective than gaat guns because they fire damn near twice as fast. That punisher held you guys back for a little while.
When the crawling bombs started coming it killed 11 metal income, deci even made a comment on ts about how long the exploiter stays open as opposed to immediately going back to producing metal.
The only reason I was able to hold you guys off for som long is that it seemed as though you all were afraid to attack.
ahh well this went way off topic a l;ong time ago...
The reason I stopped playing arm in the first place was because they were so easy to win with. I don't consider playing with arm that much of a challenge, because I don't have to change my strategy nearly as much as I have to when I play core.
Again to prove another point, steve, remember in that game yesterday? What did my teammates send at the 3 of you guys? The guy on my right sent 5 bulldogs, once. The guy on the hill in the back sent 1 swarm of banishers. The rest of the burden I shouldered, and from what I could tell, you were doing most of the attacking from your team.
THe bitch about the whole deal was that I couldn't attack because there was no one to back me up, and if I stayed where I was I got chewed up. If I had been able to build 2 anni's (which given my resources, while very low, 20 freakers tend to build anthing fast, would have been doable) things in the middle would have gone quite differently.
Would a ddm have done me more good than that exploiter? Hardly. DDM's suck and thats why I don't use them. The exploiters and vipers are the only decent defensive structures that core has imo. Arm sentinals are much more effective than gaat guns because they fire damn near twice as fast. That punisher held you guys back for a little while.
When the crawling bombs started coming it killed 11 metal income, deci even made a comment on ts about how long the exploiter stays open as opposed to immediately going back to producing metal.
The only reason I was able to hold you guys off for som long is that it seemed as though you all were afraid to attack.
ahh well this went way off topic a l;ong time ago...
Playing arm a long time ago is different to what it is now - there have been many changes,
note we never built an anni yesterday on river dale, and I saw mainly level1 units in your swarms you sent to the middle, that will not work against any side, core or arm at a point in the game where there are vipers or gauss cannons in play.
I consider playing with arm a good challenge, their units are weak in general and rely more on speed and maneuverablility and take a lot of micro management especially as they have to be mixed to be effective,
Anyway I just dont think the difference are as bad as they've been made out...
not afraid to attack either, attacking is my favourite thing hehe, I just wanna scout and make sure that when I do attack.. its succesful, I cant have you with 10 bulldog corpses worth 10000 metal, its just not cricket... hehe
note we never built an anni yesterday on river dale, and I saw mainly level1 units in your swarms you sent to the middle, that will not work against any side, core or arm at a point in the game where there are vipers or gauss cannons in play.
I consider playing with arm a good challenge, their units are weak in general and rely more on speed and maneuverablility and take a lot of micro management especially as they have to be mixed to be effective,
Anyway I just dont think the difference are as bad as they've been made out...
not afraid to attack either, attacking is my favourite thing hehe, I just wanna scout and make sure that when I do attack.. its succesful, I cant have you with 10 bulldog corpses worth 10000 metal, its just not cricket... hehe
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Forboding Angel
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