The subject of comm death and use of the D-gun has been discussed before
( for various spirited posts see http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... ight=death ).
A lot of different opinions have been expressed, and generally there is much disagreement on the subject.
From my own experience, as well as from talking with a lot of people in the lobby, many are at present unhappy with the current options for comm death and d-gun usage.
To summarize, the current options (set in the battleroom) are:
1) Game continues if commander dies
2) Game continues if commander dies + limit D-gun to start pos
3) Game ends if commander dies
4) Game ends if commander dies + limit D-gun to start pos
I have read many arguments, that discuss in detail the benefits of each of the above. If you are perfectly happy with one of the above 4 options, then I'm happy for you. Go to the lobby, and enjoy playing TA-Spring with others that feel the same.
If you, on the other hand, like myself and many others feel that all the above 4 options are all flawed, and often detract from your gaming experience, please read on, and and make constructive comments on the following proposals.
One group of people that are NOT currently catered to in the battle room options, is the one that is characterized by:
1) A feeling that "Game ends if commander dies" becomes to narrowly focused on taking out the comm, and instead like "conventional obliterative warfare" where the aim is to take out all opponent units and structures.
AND
2) Hate the way an exploding commander next to enemy structures can totally wreck a game in terms of balance.
What I am proposing, in order to allow that particular group of people a more enjoyable gaming experience, is to include an option (checkbox) in the battleroom to disable commander explosion. This would address the above two points.
Please remember, that I am NOT proposing to remove existing options, but rather to add an option to make a substantially larger percentage of players happy.
The above suggestion is the crucial part of this post, but while I am at it, I would like to suggest another battleroom improvement:
Instead of just having the "limit D-gun to start pos" option (the option of limiting D-gun radius is obviously needed to discourage D-gun rushing in "Game continues if commander dies" games), the host should be able to indicate the RADIUS from each players starting position within which the D-gun can be used (to adapt the limit D-gun feature to various map sizes and players desires).
A visual indication of this radius should be given on the battleroom minimap for intuitive use of the feature.
Constructive, non-inflammatory comments and/or improvement suggestions are wellcome.
Yet another discussion about commanders
Moderator: Moderators
I still dont get why there is this "OMG command bomb" whining again, recently.
If there is any decent scouting done by the oppenent, trying to commander-bomb WILL fail, and hurt the party trying to conduct it.
In the early game, 2 or 3 rockos can kill a comander easily if micromanaged, and the commander loss will be huge for the oppenent.
In the middle/end game, when the comander becomes obsolete, it doesnt stand a snowballs chance in hell to even get anywhere to do a lot of damage...
(and sorry, if you dont have air patrols for airlifted ones, or dont have radar cover to see a cloaked one sneaking in its your own fault)
If there is any decent scouting done by the oppenent, trying to commander-bomb WILL fail, and hurt the party trying to conduct it.
In the early game, 2 or 3 rockos can kill a comander easily if micromanaged, and the commander loss will be huge for the oppenent.
In the middle/end game, when the comander becomes obsolete, it doesnt stand a snowballs chance in hell to even get anywhere to do a lot of damage...
(and sorry, if you dont have air patrols for airlifted ones, or dont have radar cover to see a cloaked one sneaking in its your own fault)
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Well, I always lived by the motto "whatever goes, goes". Generally, I felt, if someone gets away with taking a large chunk out of your base through a suicidal commander, it is your fault for not preventing a commander from getting through. Also, given the absolute importance of the commander, if someone loses theirs, I think its only fair that they take a chunk out of whatever it was that dealt the death knell.
I thought it was an excellent feature of TA's gameplay, and I think people should learn to deal with it, and everything that it causes, not try and code their way out of it.
However, it doesn't hurt me in any way for the option to be included, and should it improve your game experience, why should I stop it?
However, just for the record; it would be much easier to just make a mini-mod for whatever game you want to play, and then alter the commander explosion FBI. It is one line of an FBI value that you have to edit, and the whole thing will work exactly the way you want it.
I thought it was an excellent feature of TA's gameplay, and I think people should learn to deal with it, and everything that it causes, not try and code their way out of it.
However, it doesn't hurt me in any way for the option to be included, and should it improve your game experience, why should I stop it?
However, just for the record; it would be much easier to just make a mini-mod for whatever game you want to play, and then alter the commander explosion FBI. It is one line of an FBI value that you have to edit, and the whole thing will work exactly the way you want it.
I like the options as they are and i also like that new proposal, except for the d-gun part, as varying d-gun radii will tillt the games balance easily.
People are absolutely right when they say, that its the fault of the defender when the comm-bmb manages to get close.
But there is one point to keep in mind that only applies to team games:
In team-games, the comm of a team-member of yours that is currently beaten upon by many others, or who is simply on the front-line or what not will often just comm-bomb, even more so if it is comm ends.
Two players in a team-game will simply eradicate eachother with one d-gun shot, and that happens quite a lot, because none of them wants to retreat, and, i ask you, why should either of them? If they can be sure to take at least one opponent with them when they die, they will always be aggressive.
The problem is, that games end very quickly and frustratingly that way, as half of the players might get kicked out of the game early by that behavior. And if you chose to retreat the other guy will surely set up that forward base at your doorstep and you will be gone soon afterwards.
Your team-mates wont help you, because they are busy on the other fronts.
There are three simple solutions for mutual-gunning:
D-Guns no longer hurt commanders.
Comm-Bomb no longer hurts commanders. (its a quick-draw then :D )
Both dont hurt commanders.
People are absolutely right when they say, that its the fault of the defender when the comm-bmb manages to get close.
But there is one point to keep in mind that only applies to team games:
In team-games, the comm of a team-member of yours that is currently beaten upon by many others, or who is simply on the front-line or what not will often just comm-bomb, even more so if it is comm ends.
Two players in a team-game will simply eradicate eachother with one d-gun shot, and that happens quite a lot, because none of them wants to retreat, and, i ask you, why should either of them? If they can be sure to take at least one opponent with them when they die, they will always be aggressive.
The problem is, that games end very quickly and frustratingly that way, as half of the players might get kicked out of the game early by that behavior. And if you chose to retreat the other guy will surely set up that forward base at your doorstep and you will be gone soon afterwards.
Your team-mates wont help you, because they are busy on the other fronts.
There are three simple solutions for mutual-gunning:
D-Guns no longer hurt commanders.
Comm-Bomb no longer hurts commanders. (its a quick-draw then :D )
Both dont hurt commanders.
I agree with Jens that option should be included, personally I wont use it, but conversely, wouldnt have a problem joining games using it, if it makes the game more enjoyable for certain players then go for it.
Another option would be to restrict where the comm can move with a similar radius to the one used with limited dgun as limiting the d gun doesnt stop a comm walking into your base lasering stuff until he gets taken out... taking your factory and economy with him. it doesnt happen that often though... but might be another idea...
(im tallking about early game here btw on a small maps too)
Personally I wouldnt use that one either though, just a suggestion for other players....
:)
Another option would be to restrict where the comm can move with a similar radius to the one used with limited dgun as limiting the d gun doesnt stop a comm walking into your base lasering stuff until he gets taken out... taking your factory and economy with him. it doesnt happen that often though... but might be another idea...
(im tallking about early game here btw on a small maps too)
Personally I wouldnt use that one either though, just a suggestion for other players....
:)
The one problem with limiting teh coms movement (and hence why I suggest its not made an option 
) would be that if your first base was overrun and you were running your com to your mates base with a few units, suddenly he'd hit an invisable wall. Suddenly 20 golies blow him to high heaven. See the problem there?
However an option to change his explosion size would be OK, maybe a slider to change it. It should still do teh same damage bare in mind, just be reduced in area of effect.
(Although bare in mind, his big explosion is because if hes overrun then most of your base will be to, its like a last ditch effort to save yourself sort of thing.)
aGorm
) would be that if your first base was overrun and you were running your com to your mates base with a few units, suddenly he'd hit an invisable wall. Suddenly 20 golies blow him to high heaven. See the problem there?However an option to change his explosion size would be OK, maybe a slider to change it. It should still do teh same damage bare in mind, just be reduced in area of effect.
(Although bare in mind, his big explosion is because if hes overrun then most of your base will be to, its like a last ditch effort to save yourself sort of thing.)
aGorm
Ah yes Agorm... I did not see that flaw in my otherwise perfect plan to limit the comms movement... do'h...
hmmm...maybe a horizontal line could be drawn and he could move anywhere apart from past the line e.g anywhere in his own half of the map?
I dunno why im suggesting this cos I wouldnt use it anyway even if it was available hhee
hmmm...maybe a horizontal line could be drawn and he could move anywhere apart from past the line e.g anywhere in his own half of the map?
I dunno why im suggesting this cos I wouldnt use it anyway even if it was available hhee
oh, my god get over it.
Ok, the com bomb is devastating.. but it can be devastating to a player as well. Com bombing is something that must be handled carefully. There is not lack of balance. you gotta get over that.
The com is your best con, your begining storage and you #1 asset to for taking care of problem units... to a certain degree. Blowing him up can be less advantagous then keeping him alive. In despertation combombing is stupid and when well planned he is a difficult nuke to use.
Ok, the com bomb is devastating.. but it can be devastating to a player as well. Com bombing is something that must be handled carefully. There is not lack of balance. you gotta get over that.
The com is your best con, your begining storage and you #1 asset to for taking care of problem units... to a certain degree. Blowing him up can be less advantagous then keeping him alive. In despertation combombing is stupid and when well planned he is a difficult nuke to use.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Comm-Bomb no longer hurts commanders. (its a quick-draw then :D )
I think this would be the best.
Ya know, ppl have a hard problem dealing with the fact that if I find thei comm in the middle on comm ends I dgun him. Period. Anymore, I refuse to put up with that crap.
I am not going to lets some player attempt to intimidate me out of my side of the middle. If he want's to play that way... Fine with me, we'll just spectate for the rest of the game.
I think this would be the best.
Ya know, ppl have a hard problem dealing with the fact that if I find thei comm in the middle on comm ends I dgun him. Period. Anymore, I refuse to put up with that crap.
I am not going to lets some player attempt to intimidate me out of my side of the middle. If he want's to play that way... Fine with me, we'll just spectate for the rest of the game.
We know all that smoth,
Its just a case of catering for other players, if there is a way to prevent it by simply adding a little check box in the lobby then why not?
A an early comm bomb does not have to be handled carefully hehe
dugun llt dgun llt - walk - dgun factory - dgun or get dgunned by enemy comm... hmm that takes alot of careful thought... ho hum
im happy as is - so are you it seems, but some are not, it shouldnt be too hard to help them out a little...
Its just a case of catering for other players, if there is a way to prevent it by simply adding a little check box in the lobby then why not?
A an early comm bomb does not have to be handled carefully hehe
dugun llt dgun llt - walk - dgun factory - dgun or get dgunned by enemy comm... hmm that takes alot of careful thought... ho hum
im happy as is - so are you it seems, but some are not, it shouldnt be too hard to help them out a little...
Comm bombing and rushing has always been a part of TA since it came out in 97.
If you don't like it tough, learn how to deal with it. I don't mean to sound rude but this has been going on for 9 years. People complain all the time and want something done.
People posted here things that could be done to easily stop a comm rush and comm bomb. Or, take him out with ur own comm.
Be thankful that you cannot offscreen your commander like in OTA, or you would hate me more than any other player.
If you don't like it tough, learn how to deal with it. I don't mean to sound rude but this has been going on for 9 years. People complain all the time and want something done.
People posted here things that could be done to easily stop a comm rush and comm bomb. Or, take him out with ur own comm.
Be thankful that you cannot offscreen your commander like in OTA, or you would hate me more than any other player.
In times like this I turn to the wisdom of the TA Community:
originally posted by PeterC:
originally posted by PeterC:
Commander issues in TA 101
This is basically an issue that comes up for every TA player in the sense that as you get good, you begin to realise the power of taking the centre of small maps. Usually these battles are fought with radar-targetted MTs and - unless interrupted by something to break the long war of attrition - the winner of the centre is the one who makes more MTs and radar-targets better.
But pretty soon as you get good you realise that the absolute way to break this stalemate is to get a Guardian up very quickly and fire on those MTs from outside their range. You use your com to help build it and then stand him in front to protect against attacks. And of course, the com standing in front, the enemy can Dgun only if he's willing to end the game.
A lot of players just aren't willing to do this, so you have a very easy path to victory - use your com to expand aggressively to the most important part of the map and then make it impossible for him to do the same because you'd both die if he tried to remove the obstacle to his doing so - your Guardian.
The trouble for this player is that plenty of players are willing to say "What the hell?" and go for a draw if you do something like this. So naturally these people start to think, "Hey, it's not my strategy of relying on my enemy's sense of honour in a war game that's wrong here - it's a lack of ethics, rules and suitable definitions!" and then to act like the directive-quoting Commander in Molloy's great screenshot.
9/10 of all "comrushing" arguments involve something like this. One person thinks it's okay to use his com to help him tip the balance towards victory, but is appalled if the other guy takes DenimDemon's attitude and uses his com to tip the balance back again, towards a draw. "If both players use their com like this that means a draw!" he cries, perhaps not realising that the only reason his special directives stop a draw is because they allow the initiator of com aggression to do all kinds of lovely things but stop his opponent responding in kind. No wonder it stops draws when you have rules like that! You'd have fewer draws if one player started with 10k/10k and the other with 1k/1k too.
But the reality is you just don't see that many draws among good players in online TA, and the reason is that both realise that if they send their com out to the front, either as offender or defender, then he'll either be killed by enemy units or Dgunned. Both players know this, and so both tend to keep their coms back. You don't need any rules to prevent most draws - all you need is the knowledge that if you put your com in the main field of battle you can't win. You can almost consider it a "keep your com back" rule, except it's enforced by self-interest, nothing more. Therefore it usually works very well.
Even then, it doesn't always work out, so good players do sometimes argue this stuff. The only 100% sure solution is to play on maps bigger than, say, Red Hot Lava, where the commander just isn't an issue whatever he does.
(Wild applause)
Thank you, any questions?
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Hehe I just dont care anymore, this has been discussed many times and I cant be bothered to argue, this post was originally about how to cater for players who desire a slightly different experience with regards to comm usage, not really why comm rushing/bombing is, or isnt acceptable...
I say again I agree with Jens, putting the extra option in will do no harm atall...
I say again I agree with Jens, putting the extra option in will do no harm atall...
Would be simple to have a mutator where comm explosions are tiny and inconsequential. But then it turns from, "rushing your comm close enough to the enemy's so as to catch it in the explosion" to, "who can hit the other guy's comm first with the d-gun". Whoever hits first suddenly has decisive control over the area, because a commander is of course a walking army in the early part of the game where this is a concern.
So, then the next logical step is, remove the d-gun. Well if you're this psychotic, nobody's going to listen to you anyhow.
Point is, one of the unique things about TA is that it relies on the commander being the strongest yet weakest unit simultaneously. If used properly, he's a battlefield terror. If used improperly, there goes your base.
If you want, I'll make a mutator for AA to do some combination of the above... just settle on what it is your want and make sure you've thought out the repurcussions it will have on gameplay.
So, then the next logical step is, remove the d-gun. Well if you're this psychotic, nobody's going to listen to you anyhow.
Point is, one of the unique things about TA is that it relies on the commander being the strongest yet weakest unit simultaneously. If used properly, he's a battlefield terror. If used improperly, there goes your base.
If you want, I'll make a mutator for AA to do some combination of the above... just settle on what it is your want and make sure you've thought out the repurcussions it will have on gameplay.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29