Hehe where is drex?
Drex....
Hello...?
Drex......
Hes gotta be around here somewhere he posted a couple o days ago...
Drex....?
Hello???
Drex you there?
hello???
you there mate....?
hehe
Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]
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wizard8873
- Posts: 254
- Joined: 21 Jan 2006, 02:42
something does need to be done with lvl 1. most games i stick to kbots since theyre cheaper then tanks and once i get some defenses up, i want to jump to lvl 2 right away. ill will build tanks but that doesnt help much. i dont think moving any of the lvl2 units to lvl 1 solves it because then the game will be completely unbalanced. i had a maverick take out 4 hammers, three peewees and a rocko in one game. granted, it was due to my poor unit maneuvers but they still got owned.
but, moving for a second to the other extreme, what do u guys think about a lvl3 unit that utilizes the shield deflector? i think this would be kinda cool. weaker armor than a krogoth or orcone, but they shield would really help it out. although, you would need a good energy income for support one in a battle. it would have to fire lasers and rockets though since the shields effect plasma. just a thought i got in the last game i played.
but, moving for a second to the other extreme, what do u guys think about a lvl3 unit that utilizes the shield deflector? i think this would be kinda cool. weaker armor than a krogoth or orcone, but they shield would really help it out. although, you would need a good energy income for support one in a battle. it would have to fire lasers and rockets though since the shields effect plasma. just a thought i got in the last game i played.
I find some of what i've read here a bit funny...If level 1 players can fight back evenly against level 2 players, whats the reward for taking the *risk* of going level 2 first? Its a pretty hefty investment early in the game... While your going level 2, the enemy has an *advantage*...If they don't use that advantage, thats their problem. I've lost games by being overwhelmed while trying to get level 2, and i've beaten people who do lvl2 early as well.
Moving the pyro and zeus to level 1 seems fine to me, I agree they are subpar level 2 units. I also agree that its fine to raise the cost of the lvl2 factory *some*. Weakening level 2 units relative to lvl 1? One word: NO!
By the way, level 1 units are very effective throughout most of the game. Try making, cost for cost, thuds/hammers vs mavericks. See what happens. Heck, try making cost for cost, crashers vs brawlers... They'll do better than you think! Try stumpies vs bulldogs.
Frankly, the reason I go level 2 is not for the units. Its for the economy. Once I am level 2 and your level 1, I'll spank you with my thuds no problem. Thats as it should be, economic risk(of going lvl2 early) vs reward. Fact is, most players play too conservatively...This lets their opponent focus on their economy/teching up. I consider myself a fairly decent player and all the good players I know are *aggressive*. Frankly, the best players are the most aggressive. In teching up, land acquisition, attacking, etc. Its amazing fun watching your opponent be so distracted by the attacking forces you throw at him that he does not have TIME to expand/grow his economy. I call this the "multitasking" factor. Being able to handle more things at one time often leads to victory. At the very least this forces them to build alot more defenses...Which means less growth in economy/tech. And god knows, i've completely eradicated people with my level 1 units often enough, so this is not just a "distracting" tactic.
What do you say Steve, Decimator, Forboding, Forbidin, etc? Isn't level 1 quite effective in the right hands? Do you agree that a *small* increase in lvl2 factory-cost is ok?
-Drexion
Moving the pyro and zeus to level 1 seems fine to me, I agree they are subpar level 2 units. I also agree that its fine to raise the cost of the lvl2 factory *some*. Weakening level 2 units relative to lvl 1? One word: NO!
By the way, level 1 units are very effective throughout most of the game. Try making, cost for cost, thuds/hammers vs mavericks. See what happens. Heck, try making cost for cost, crashers vs brawlers... They'll do better than you think! Try stumpies vs bulldogs.
Frankly, the reason I go level 2 is not for the units. Its for the economy. Once I am level 2 and your level 1, I'll spank you with my thuds no problem. Thats as it should be, economic risk(of going lvl2 early) vs reward. Fact is, most players play too conservatively...This lets their opponent focus on their economy/teching up. I consider myself a fairly decent player and all the good players I know are *aggressive*. Frankly, the best players are the most aggressive. In teching up, land acquisition, attacking, etc. Its amazing fun watching your opponent be so distracted by the attacking forces you throw at him that he does not have TIME to expand/grow his economy. I call this the "multitasking" factor. Being able to handle more things at one time often leads to victory. At the very least this forces them to build alot more defenses...Which means less growth in economy/tech. And god knows, i've completely eradicated people with my level 1 units often enough, so this is not just a "distracting" tactic.
What do you say Steve, Decimator, Forboding, Forbidin, etc? Isn't level 1 quite effective in the right hands? Do you agree that a *small* increase in lvl2 factory-cost is ok?
-Drexion
. Work has been nuts and I have family visiting me from Brazil, so haven't been able to play =(. Should be able to again starting this sunday or so.-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Personally I would be happy with the zues pyro move... But increasing the cost of l2 imo would be a mistake. It's already a serious bitch to get to already and in most of my games my allies have allergies to building attack units which manages to make me shoulder the entire burden of fighting 3 opponents off.
Hell the other day I was playing vs felix and 2 other guys on greeenhaven. My ally to the south attakced once, got his forces pwned and left. The guy north of me left in the first 2 minutes. Believe it or not... I pulled off the win (I should post that replay) by using distraction techniques. One of my allies was arm so I had fun massing brawlers (hehehe it's amazing how fast 20 freakers guarding a factory will pump out brawlers). Using mixed l1 and l2 units with air I completely overwhelmed them. I didn't hit with my brawlers till I had a swarm lol. They didn't even know that I had air lol. In one run I killed off their entire front defence line. After that my mixed l1 and l2 kbots started moving in FTW.
Typically I find lv3 units nothing but a waste of my time. Also, I have found that l1 units are absolutely amazing at taking down krogs. You just have to get them close and surround the krog so it can't shoot them or do anything.
L1 imo is fine as it is. It would be a lot better if the pyro and zues were moved to l1 tho. I pity the fool who doesn't keep building l1 units till the end of the game. They have so many uses in late game.
Hell the other day I was playing vs felix and 2 other guys on greeenhaven. My ally to the south attakced once, got his forces pwned and left. The guy north of me left in the first 2 minutes. Believe it or not... I pulled off the win (I should post that replay) by using distraction techniques. One of my allies was arm so I had fun massing brawlers (hehehe it's amazing how fast 20 freakers guarding a factory will pump out brawlers). Using mixed l1 and l2 units with air I completely overwhelmed them. I didn't hit with my brawlers till I had a swarm lol. They didn't even know that I had air lol. In one run I killed off their entire front defence line. After that my mixed l1 and l2 kbots started moving in FTW.
Typically I find lv3 units nothing but a waste of my time. Also, I have found that l1 units are absolutely amazing at taking down krogs. You just have to get them close and surround the krog so it can't shoot them or do anything.
L1 imo is fine as it is. It would be a lot better if the pyro and zues were moved to l1 tho. I pity the fool who doesn't keep building l1 units till the end of the game. They have so many uses in late game.
Zeus, Pyro will remain L2. If they're a bit subpar, that can be fixed, but IMO zeuses are excellent units. Pyros and virtually all other units that were balanced with swarming in mind (ie, one unit being able to fire through another) are underpowered now because this is no longer possible. I'm trying to elminate these weaknesses with each new version... for instance, AK/PW are now much better units and behave exactly as they did in OTA... kinda.
About L3 units being a waste... I don't really agree with that. The problem is that, as you say, people assume they're a one-man-army and send them out completely alone. A lone Orcone or Krogoth are equivalent to an entire army but that doesn't mean that you should treat them as such. Backed by a mix of L1 and L2 units, with anti-air units, they are nigh unstoppable in situations where just the L1 and L2 units would be overwhelmed.
I've not been on TS because I've not been playing much. 1.42 was a big project and I was just too busy to play much... and now I'm trying to hunt down whatever problems are left. In a project like AA where whatever imbalances still exist are miniscule and often debatable, that can be pretty tricky... Anyway I think I've got a kinda decent change list now:
Changelog revised: http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... 5083#55083
Still a WIP. 43 is still a ways off, some of the changes will be complex.
About L3 units being a waste... I don't really agree with that. The problem is that, as you say, people assume they're a one-man-army and send them out completely alone. A lone Orcone or Krogoth are equivalent to an entire army but that doesn't mean that you should treat them as such. Backed by a mix of L1 and L2 units, with anti-air units, they are nigh unstoppable in situations where just the L1 and L2 units would be overwhelmed.
I've not been on TS because I've not been playing much. 1.42 was a big project and I was just too busy to play much... and now I'm trying to hunt down whatever problems are left. In a project like AA where whatever imbalances still exist are miniscule and often debatable, that can be pretty tricky... Anyway I think I've got a kinda decent change list now:
Changelog revised: http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... 5083#55083
Still a WIP. 43 is still a ways off, some of the changes will be complex.
Last edited by Caydr on 03 Feb 2006, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
hmmm yes level 1 is not necessarily as crappy as everyone think
vs level 2.
No word of a lie - I lost 4 fidos to 7 peewees that swarmed me as I was climbing a hill, I wasnt microing my fidos but they got nailed by 7 peewees much to the amusement of the spectators - i will post the reply if you dont believe me -
level 1 is always useful if they are used in the correct manner - I.e not charging head on into a hail of fatboy fire :)
I go level 2 early if I can for obvious reasons but I always have level units hanging around they are far from useless the changes to level 2 factories are ok I guess but I just like it the way it is at the moment.
How about you increase tac nuke damage too? I fired a missile and got a direct hit on an anni and it was still standing... they are a little underpowered I feel - very small aoe too I noticed maybe a little boost?
caydr what changes are you making to the mav? what does beefed up mean? more range? :) please say more range :) hehe
Level 3... useless? bah.. insolence young forboding... I shall show thee the way of the level 3 arm artillery thingy... you think tremors are mean? you aint seen nuthin yet hehe
vs level 2.
No word of a lie - I lost 4 fidos to 7 peewees that swarmed me as I was climbing a hill, I wasnt microing my fidos but they got nailed by 7 peewees much to the amusement of the spectators - i will post the reply if you dont believe me -
level 1 is always useful if they are used in the correct manner - I.e not charging head on into a hail of fatboy fire :)
I go level 2 early if I can for obvious reasons but I always have level units hanging around they are far from useless the changes to level 2 factories are ok I guess but I just like it the way it is at the moment.
How about you increase tac nuke damage too? I fired a missile and got a direct hit on an anni and it was still standing... they are a little underpowered I feel - very small aoe too I noticed maybe a little boost?
caydr what changes are you making to the mav? what does beefed up mean? more range? :) please say more range :) hehe
Level 3... useless? bah.. insolence young forboding... I shall show thee the way of the level 3 arm artillery thingy... you think tremors are mean? you aint seen nuthin yet hehe
The problem with comparing l1 vs l2 units at a cost for cost basis is that its apples/oranges. Like 1.5 or 2 units of 'l2 metal' to each unit of metal spent on l1 units. I think we're all kinda saying that without saying it tho...
That 1.43 changelog looks a little like super core love at the moment...
That 1.43 changelog looks a little like super core love at the moment...
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
1.42 --> 1.43
Adv Solar costs increased 50%, output increased 50% - Ok fine, whatever works.
Moho metal extractor output reduced to OTA standard, now cost 50 energy to operate - ???????? This isn't xta, and doing this slows expansion. This only makes porcing the easier option. Very bad change imo. 10 - 30 energy I can put up with, but 50???
Maverick beefed up - Umm how much, if it becomes teh Ub3r can opener again I'm gonna be really upset.
Zipper damage reduced 10%, speed reduced 10% - Very good change imo.
Zeus HP increased 150 - Good call.
Can speed boosted 10%, HP increased 10%, range increased 5% - Ahh much better. I actually will have a reason to build them again.
Leveler speed boosted 10%, HP increased 100 - N1, it's speed was the main factor in me never using them.
Big Bertha, Intimidator structure increased in height - Very good stuff.
Tactical, Mobile nuke launchers are now non-interceptable - Very nice, very nice.
Liche missile AoE reduced - Umm not sure this was needed but ok.
Inferno, Helios, MRUs removed, total unit count is now 386 - What in the hell? Why is the helios being removed??? So now arm has an uber bomber and we get stuck with a humongus hurricane with a bit more health and aoe??? Ahh well. I can live with it. Never used hurricanes anyway because of the redundancy.
Goliath HP increased 250 - I dig.
Pyro damage increased 10%, HP increased 5% - Very nice.
Mumbo speed increased 5% - Much better.
Krogtaar weapon AoE increased 25% - Prolly a good change, since it's range sucks ass.
Edited post to make it more congruent.
Adv Solar costs increased 50%, output increased 50% - Ok fine, whatever works.
Moho metal extractor output reduced to OTA standard, now cost 50 energy to operate - ???????? This isn't xta, and doing this slows expansion. This only makes porcing the easier option. Very bad change imo. 10 - 30 energy I can put up with, but 50???
Maverick beefed up - Umm how much, if it becomes teh Ub3r can opener again I'm gonna be really upset.
Zipper damage reduced 10%, speed reduced 10% - Very good change imo.
Zeus HP increased 150 - Good call.
Can speed boosted 10%, HP increased 10%, range increased 5% - Ahh much better. I actually will have a reason to build them again.
Leveler speed boosted 10%, HP increased 100 - N1, it's speed was the main factor in me never using them.
Big Bertha, Intimidator structure increased in height - Very good stuff.
Tactical, Mobile nuke launchers are now non-interceptable - Very nice, very nice.
Liche missile AoE reduced - Umm not sure this was needed but ok.
Inferno, Helios, MRUs removed, total unit count is now 386 - What in the hell? Why is the helios being removed??? So now arm has an uber bomber and we get stuck with a humongus hurricane with a bit more health and aoe??? Ahh well. I can live with it. Never used hurricanes anyway because of the redundancy.
Goliath HP increased 250 - I dig.
Pyro damage increased 10%, HP increased 5% - Very nice.
Mumbo speed increased 5% - Much better.
Krogtaar weapon AoE increased 25% - Prolly a good change, since it's range sucks ass.
Edited post to make it more congruent.
Heh, core love patch, as Mother said. I dislike the Adv solar change for the reason I said before...getting the first one up will be annoying now =p. Moho change i'm ok with (-20% metal to bring it inline with OTA right?...50 energy seems ok to me, 40 might be better).
I like to give Caydr my "OMG NOT THIS CHANGE"...and this patch's winner is: Leveler change. Are ya nuts? That unit is already VERY good! Ask Decimator, he uses it all the time =). Its going to become FANTASTIC now. Sure its never been a speed demon, but then what core unit is? Levelers are greattttttt at providing tremor/artillary protection... Charging at the artillary? Good luck!
-Drexion
I like to give Caydr my "OMG NOT THIS CHANGE"...and this patch's winner is: Leveler change. Are ya nuts? That unit is already VERY good! Ask Decimator, he uses it all the time =). Its going to become FANTASTIC now. Sure its never been a speed demon, but then what core unit is? Levelers are greattttttt at providing tremor/artillary protection... Charging at the artillary? Good luck!
-Drexion
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Wait, why remove the helios? Those things see a lot of play and many core players(including myself) will be very unhappy to see them removed. They are my primary anti-unit bomber and they excel at that. The other core lvl2 bomber is more anti-building and it is very useful for that. (as my fusions have found out occasionally)
Edit: What's the inferno? And I'm not really sure why more arm players don't use the mru's since they give just as much energy as the arm fusion.
Edit: What's the inferno? And I'm not really sure why more arm players don't use the mru's since they give just as much energy as the arm fusion.
as for what i think sumos are far too slow now..Andreask wrote:If anybody needs some love, its Core.
Their bots suck, nobody praises the sumo anymore.
Their vehicles lose against bulldogs and penetrators.
Their aircraft get outclassed by hawks and brawlers.
At least that holds true from a very subjective view, as i dont see many core players around these days.
while vehicles comparison arm is by far better, for air its not true IMO
i think air is considerably equal amongst races
Oh and btw, some complety unconstructive critizism from me:
WTF has happened to Gollies? Did they get turned into the nerf-mobile or what? Bulldogs completely own them. I know that you tested this earlier, but keep in mind that the Goliath was once the be-all and end-all of all tanks, and i just miss his glory.
Maybe you can bring some of it back, perhaps some more than what is planned for AA 1.43. Not only more HP, but more firepower also, cause it fires so slow.
WTF has happened to Gollies? Did they get turned into the nerf-mobile or what? Bulldogs completely own them. I know that you tested this earlier, but keep in mind that the Goliath was once the be-all and end-all of all tanks, and i just miss his glory.
Maybe you can bring some of it back, perhaps some more than what is planned for AA 1.43. Not only more HP, but more firepower also, cause it fires so slow.
Wtf, why remove Helios? Core perhaps needs some more beefing up, since I see much more arm players around.
I agree with that krogtaar change, if you ask me it also needs a secondary weapon, some missile perhaps. Right now I think it is still pretty useless.
As I said before, Banisher could use some range increase(and perhaps extra anti mech damage) at the cost of being slightly more expensive.
Maverick should not be improved IMO, it is already quite deadly in groups.
Bulldogs also seem an uber unit now, arm players almost never use any other tank(I don't remember seeing a lightning tank for quite long, they were very good once.)
Banthas are IMO too badass, Core needs some stronger anti mech stuff.
I agree with that krogtaar change, if you ask me it also needs a secondary weapon, some missile perhaps. Right now I think it is still pretty useless.
As I said before, Banisher could use some range increase(and perhaps extra anti mech damage) at the cost of being slightly more expensive.
Maverick should not be improved IMO, it is already quite deadly in groups.
Bulldogs also seem an uber unit now, arm players almost never use any other tank(I don't remember seeing a lightning tank for quite long, they were very good once.)
Banthas are IMO too badass, Core needs some stronger anti mech stuff.
Yer I think removing helios is a bad idea, they great for core players, if you remove them I dont think youd see many core players using level2 air.
The banishers are fine as is I think, but gollys definately should get a serious boost, its meant to be the ultimate tank but buldogs can almost stand toe to toe with it. A firepower increase and maybe another boost in hp and a slight cost increase maybe - I always play arm and I used to be worried if i saw gollys lurking around an opponents base but not anymore.
As for the mav I think a little beefing would be good, they aren't very sturdy which is fine - they aren't supposed to be, but as they cant outrange anything in the game they have to get really close to fire and by that point they're pretty much dead - I think the metal cost is bout 700 which is expensive for a unit with such a short lifespan, I dunno maybe just a little extra range...
Can changes seem good too maybe a little extra firepower too?
banthas are badass - but core has that missile level3 kbot thing the catapult which is pure destruction in a tin can - but nobody ever seems to use them...
The banishers are fine as is I think, but gollys definately should get a serious boost, its meant to be the ultimate tank but buldogs can almost stand toe to toe with it. A firepower increase and maybe another boost in hp and a slight cost increase maybe - I always play arm and I used to be worried if i saw gollys lurking around an opponents base but not anymore.
As for the mav I think a little beefing would be good, they aren't very sturdy which is fine - they aren't supposed to be, but as they cant outrange anything in the game they have to get really close to fire and by that point they're pretty much dead - I think the metal cost is bout 700 which is expensive for a unit with such a short lifespan, I dunno maybe just a little extra range...
Can changes seem good too maybe a little extra firepower too?
banthas are badass - but core has that missile level3 kbot thing the catapult which is pure destruction in a tin can - but nobody ever seems to use them...