I don't really get what you'd have to unlearn. The basics are still the same as ever, you have metal- height- and texturemaps, you compile them and put into an archive with a text file, be it mapinfo.lua or the .smd. Then you put the right values into the text file and add some extra jazz if you like.Cheesecan wrote:I know the feeling, but if you follow Forbs tutorial you will get a result that is attractive with less work. Whereas if you follow the old tutorials you will have to work much harder to get something even remotely decent. Then later, you have to unlearn all that rubbish and learn the new way. This is why it's better to learn the new way immediately.
map creation tutorial
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Re: map creation tutorial
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Forboding Angel
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Re: map creation tutorial
You don't need to compile metal into the map anymore for one thing. That can (and should be) lua'd.
The way you approach your map from smf -> ssmf is entirely different. If you don't, you'll be in a world of anguish and extra work when it comes time to create distribution maps, normals, grass distribution maps, etc.
Unless you halfass it, in which case, someone like me will point out everything where it is lolbad and tell you to do it again.
None of us like duplicating work, especially not me. I'm working on a map right now that I have spent 3 days on trying to get it right, and every iteration is requiring me to change the extra details a bit. Sure, I could push out some substandard crap. There are a lot of people around here that like to do that, but I have always been about quality. If you bother to go back and look, I am the first one to start putting out quality terrain in maps in spring back in 2005.
All that not to beat my chest, but to point out that quality matters. If you want to put out substandard junk, that's fine. No one will stop you, but if you want to learn how to do things the right way, the tools are available to you anytime you feel like picking them up.
The way you approach your map from smf -> ssmf is entirely different. If you don't, you'll be in a world of anguish and extra work when it comes time to create distribution maps, normals, grass distribution maps, etc.
Unless you halfass it, in which case, someone like me will point out everything where it is lolbad and tell you to do it again.
None of us like duplicating work, especially not me. I'm working on a map right now that I have spent 3 days on trying to get it right, and every iteration is requiring me to change the extra details a bit. Sure, I could push out some substandard crap. There are a lot of people around here that like to do that, but I have always been about quality. If you bother to go back and look, I am the first one to start putting out quality terrain in maps in spring back in 2005.
All that not to beat my chest, but to point out that quality matters. If you want to put out substandard junk, that's fine. No one will stop you, but if you want to learn how to do things the right way, the tools are available to you anytime you feel like picking them up.
Re: map creation tutorial
2009 Map:
There's nothing halfassed about that compared to new SSMF maps. If you want to focus on quality, try making something with a heightmap approaching that level of detail.
I don't know how the approach to ssmf texture making is differs exactly since I've not made one, but definitely it's more complicated to get started with than plain smf, so I don't see why a new mapper must learn all the subtleties of it before they're fit to publish anything. A well designed map that looks a bit plain is far better than a cookie cutter map that looks amazing. None of the old maps in Cheesecans link have particularly good heightmap or overall design, it's not just about bad texturing techniques why they're not played.
Hm and what's the advantage with Lua metalspots? From what I've played with them they do the same thing as a .png metalmap except lobby cannot parse them. What's the benefit to offset that (albeit small) malus?
There's nothing halfassed about that compared to new SSMF maps. If you want to focus on quality, try making something with a heightmap approaching that level of detail.
I don't know how the approach to ssmf texture making is differs exactly since I've not made one, but definitely it's more complicated to get started with than plain smf, so I don't see why a new mapper must learn all the subtleties of it before they're fit to publish anything. A well designed map that looks a bit plain is far better than a cookie cutter map that looks amazing. None of the old maps in Cheesecans link have particularly good heightmap or overall design, it's not just about bad texturing techniques why they're not played.
Hm and what's the advantage with Lua metalspots? From what I've played with them they do the same thing as a .png metalmap except lobby cannot parse them. What's the benefit to offset that (albeit small) malus?
Re: map creation tutorial
You can have multiple (mapoption determined) layouts
Re: map creation tutorial
Not having to recompile the map to change metal layout. For example if one spot accidently gives 1.9 while all others give 2.0Hm and what's the advantage with Lua metalspots?
The metalspots "get parsed into Lua" for various wupgets like "area mex" so having them in Lua in the first place saves one step. (in theory)
There could be done much more, for example they could be dynamic, a different layout every time you play. Or number of metalspots adjusts to number of players, these kind of things. But afaik that wasnt tried yet.
Re: map creation tutorial
Hey does this work for all games? I'm, happy to update the docs if its now a generic solution.knorke wrote:Not having to recompile the map to change metal layout. For example if one spot accidently gives 1.9 while all others give 2.0Hm and what's the advantage with Lua metalspots?
The metalspots "get parsed into Lua" for various wupgets like "area mex" so having them in Lua in the first place saves one step. (in theory)
There could be done much more, for example they could be dynamic, a different layout every time you play. Or number of metalspots adjusts to number of players, these kind of things. But afaik that wasnt tried yet.
Re: map creation tutorial
Johannes, it's not so much that you can't make a good non-ssmf map.
Looking at the two maps I have from you (which I like by the way), I see both of them have been made with 8-bit heightmap. This is a good example of a common beginners mistake. All that I am saying is that every new mapper stands to gain a lot by following the advice of more experienced. That way these pitfalls can be avoided. hunterw wasn't a beginner, so he knew this and got very good results. Still, talus would look even better today with ssmf(!). And it could be played in more games with lua metal.
Remember, most of us are not professional artists, so we make fledgling attempts and often get frustrated and quit when the result is bad. Following a good map tutorial can perhaps help a few more to become active in mapmaking. The idea behind tools that take some time to learn(e.g. blueprint, lua metal) is to standardize maps so they can work with more games, be of a higher quality, and be used in high-quality games.
PS.
3_bridges that has such a shitty hm was actually the most played. I am gonig to release it with ssmf one day.
@rest: no lua metal sucks, I'm going to github all this soon so anyone is welcome to submit improvements. The idea for 3 years now is to standardize so all maps have lua metal, that way we can support all games. Right now the integration & communication of ideas is not good enough to support everything. E.g. it would still draw in evorts, the player would ahve to press f11 and disable it manually. This really should be automatic.
Looking at the two maps I have from you (which I like by the way), I see both of them have been made with 8-bit heightmap. This is a good example of a common beginners mistake. All that I am saying is that every new mapper stands to gain a lot by following the advice of more experienced. That way these pitfalls can be avoided. hunterw wasn't a beginner, so he knew this and got very good results. Still, talus would look even better today with ssmf(!). And it could be played in more games with lua metal.
Remember, most of us are not professional artists, so we make fledgling attempts and often get frustrated and quit when the result is bad. Following a good map tutorial can perhaps help a few more to become active in mapmaking. The idea behind tools that take some time to learn(e.g. blueprint, lua metal) is to standardize maps so they can work with more games, be of a higher quality, and be used in high-quality games.
PS.
3_bridges that has such a shitty hm was actually the most played. I am gonig to release it with ssmf one day.
@rest: no lua metal sucks, I'm going to github all this soon so anyone is welcome to submit improvements. The idea for 3 years now is to standardize so all maps have lua metal, that way we can support all games. Right now the integration & communication of ideas is not good enough to support everything. E.g. it would still draw in evorts, the player would ahve to press f11 and disable it manually. This really should be automatic.
Re: map creation tutorial
Johannes wrote:2009 Map:
There's nothing halfassed about that compared to new SSMF maps. If you want to focus on quality, try making something with a heightmap approaching that level of detail.
I don't know how the approach to ssmf texture making is differs exactly since I've not made one, but definitely it's more complicated to get started with than plain smf, so I don't see why a new mapper must learn all the subtleties of it before they're fit to publish anything. A well designed map that looks a bit plain is far better than a cookie cutter map that looks amazing. None of the old maps in Cheesecans link have particularly good heightmap or overall design, it's not just about bad texturing techniques why they're not played.
Hm and what's the advantage with Lua metalspots? From what I've played with them they do the same thing as a .png metalmap except lobby cannot parse them. What's the benefit to offset that (albeit small) malus?
Hey, thats a good map.. i tested quite for a while on it.. cant beat good style.. nice colours and all :D Keep on truckin.. sorry if i interupted the discussion
Re: map creation tutorial
No, there is no generic solution, many maps and mods are slightly different. (But so similiar that it is silly for them to be different)enetheru wrote:Hey does this work for all games? I'm, happy to update the docs if its now a generic solution.knorke wrote:....Hm and what's the advantage with Lua metalspots?
One problem is that if a map has its own wupget to draw metalspots (say they are superfancy nice or whatever) it will conflict with the mods wupget that also wants to draw something. Would need a standardized way for the map to tell the mod: "Don't draw anything, I will do it."
But on other hand the mod might want to change the metalspots a bit, maybe for balance reason. So it can never work out 100%