I like the time-frame of 12-20 minutes before you have to be t2 or be in serious trouble. Well, by making the l2 plants more expensive you could push that to 25 mins or so, but that is not necessary as the simple truth is that lvl 1 has to be played in all games, but much of lvl 2 or higher doesnt get played, scince there is always the need to specialize and counter, which is not so much presnt with the cheap lvl 1.
Essetially i want to say that you see pretty much all of lvl 1 in every game, and even if its only for the first mins, so we dont need more of lvl 1.
Keep in mind that, for example, in Warcraft 3, you can clim all 3 and the 1/2 last tier in 10 minutes and average warcraft games last 15 minutes.
If a single game of AA is prolonged by the need to stay at tier 1 (which cant kille comms properly, you really need t2 for that), ppl will jsut get frustrated to have to play so much of t1 over and over again duing the first half hour of every game.
Level 2 isnt achieved to early at the moment, and then there is always t3 and t2 has great variety in itself.
If you want to force ppl to t1, move some nice units from t2 to t1, like you did with the medium inf bot, warrior.
Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]
Moderator: Moderators
I like how it is now. Even if someone goes lv 2, lv 1 units can still make a difference, and they often do. Lv 1 units are useful even after mass lv 2.
TAUCP has 2 units: 1 arm and 1 core. It was like a "mini fusion." They are the coal and oil plants. They give energy equivilent to that of a geo, but they cost more since they can be built anywhere. They also have a larger explosion so if u lose it, it kinda hurts.
This might help/hurt gameplay for a few reasons.
1. It might help further jump the gun to lv 2 as u can punch out MM's faster.
2. More E -> more M, so fiercer battles.
You could just increase the build time of the lv 2 factories to like an extra 33%. That just means a longer drain of the M on your economy, so having a goood economy beforehand is even more important.
TAUCP has 2 units: 1 arm and 1 core. It was like a "mini fusion." They are the coal and oil plants. They give energy equivilent to that of a geo, but they cost more since they can be built anywhere. They also have a larger explosion so if u lose it, it kinda hurts.
This might help/hurt gameplay for a few reasons.
1. It might help further jump the gun to lv 2 as u can punch out MM's faster.
2. More E -> more M, so fiercer battles.
You could just increase the build time of the lv 2 factories to like an extra 33%. That just means a longer drain of the M on your economy, so having a goood economy beforehand is even more important.
I agree with BigSteve, some more lvl1 unit variety would be very nice if you want to have lvl1 last longer. Things like the limpet mines I mentioned above, maybe some fast and weak cloakable units, the long range kbots(right now all people do is mass thuds or rockos), add back in the small plasma cannons as a heavy anti-swarm turret, add back the shodan, except giving it a heavy laser so we have a slow heavy tank at lvl1, add a medium-speed kbot with better armor than an ak to fill the gap between aks and thuds, add back the ability for nanotowers to build eachother, as weak as they are now that shouldn't be a problem, they were fun, add a crawling emp bomb for arm so they can have some lvl1 emp also, err um... </end brain dump>
I almost always go to lvl. 2 in the first 10 min....I build a few fleas, then a few adv. solar (after getting some metal extractors), then I try to get lvl. 2...but then again I play with 10,000 energy and metal.
I sort of like the idea of adding more units to lvl.1 as long as they aren't too advanced and as long as the list doesn't go over 2 pages...perhaps arm could get some non-amphibius crawling bombs that paralyze rather than do damage, and core could get the Shodan.
I do like moving to lvl.2 reletivly fast, but there are certainly some risks just because as you spend resources on the plant and adv. stuff, the other player could rush you with large swarms of lvl. 1
I sort of like the idea of adding more units to lvl.1 as long as they aren't too advanced and as long as the list doesn't go over 2 pages...perhaps arm could get some non-amphibius crawling bombs that paralyze rather than do damage, and core could get the Shodan.
I do like moving to lvl.2 reletivly fast, but there are certainly some risks just because as you spend resources on the plant and adv. stuff, the other player could rush you with large swarms of lvl. 1
I'm not going to give my personal opinions on how long L1 should last (don't wanna jinx it 
)
But I will tell you why every game is a rush to L2... And I think after I say it everyone will be like 'oh yeah.'
Moho mex's.
Everyone is so insistant on low(ish) metal maps, and this tends to be done through limiting the number of old fashion 'metal spots', that you cannot expand to maintain growth in the metal supply... Not that low(ish) metal maps are bad, or anything like that- Mearly that too few 'maintainable' spots is a real problem.
Going L2 for moho's strictly dominates continued L1 expansion into contestable areas.
So if you want to extend the lvl1 game look at the mex situation.
)But I will tell you why every game is a rush to L2... And I think after I say it everyone will be like 'oh yeah.'
Moho mex's.
Everyone is so insistant on low(ish) metal maps, and this tends to be done through limiting the number of old fashion 'metal spots', that you cannot expand to maintain growth in the metal supply... Not that low(ish) metal maps are bad, or anything like that- Mearly that too few 'maintainable' spots is a real problem.
Going L2 for moho's strictly dominates continued L1 expansion into contestable areas.
So if you want to extend the lvl1 game look at the mex situation.
The obvious way to keep people in lvl1 longer is to allow for level 1 structure upgrades, similar to how the Warhammer40k RTS is. Of course that's a spring thing not an AA thing.
I would say that making lvl2 factories very expensive and lvl3 kbot labs super expensive will help alot.
Also, I'd like to see lvl1 units still be useful against enemies using lvl2 equipment. This means that lvl2 stuff is significantly more expensive than lvl1, so a lvl1 player can make lots of units and still be a challenge to lvl2. This is already the case for some things, but some standard lvl2 units seem a bit too cheap and tend to make lvl1 units worthless.
SOme things are done really well with lvl1 vs lvl2, such as lvl1 units that have no lvl2 equivalent. The main thing to avoid is making all the lvl2 units heavy duty replacements for lvl1.
Example: bulldogs are just big stumpys, brawlers are just big lvl1 gunships, vamps are just bit freedom fighters, etc. But there's no equivalent to pelicans, mortys, penetrators, dominators, etc. So it can be worthwhile to mix up lvl1 and lvl2 units sometimes.
I would like to recommend that AKs and peewees have a bit stronger armor so they can be useful in the common battle, instead of being raiding units. This will keep them worthwhile even in lvl2 battlegrounds. It's ok to make them cost more. I'd rather the big difference between the lvl1 kbots be attack method, with lesser variance in armor level. Rockos and Thuds would still be superior units due to longer range and greater firepower, and the infantry kbots (ak, peewee) could actually be used for infantry battles instead of mexx raiding.
So, like as been mentioned above, the key to keeping lvl1 in the game longer is making level1 units versatile and useful even in a lvl2 environment. You do this by having the most variety of units at lvl1, by keeping lvl2 costs high, and by giving lvl1 units enough armor to be useful against lvl2 opponents when used in large numbers. Units like XTA's goliath are examples of BAAAD lvl1/lvl2 differences. All lvl2 units should be vulnerable to lvl1 units, so it's more a matter of tactics and management instead of sheer superiority. Not saying that an AA goliath shouldn't eat peewees for lunch, but I am saying that it shouldn't take half a mapful of lvl1 kbots to kill a lvl2 unit.
AA has done a good job so far, but if you want to adjust and improve for the sake of lvl1, I think we've seen some gr8 suggestions in this thread.
I would say that making lvl2 factories very expensive and lvl3 kbot labs super expensive will help alot.
Also, I'd like to see lvl1 units still be useful against enemies using lvl2 equipment. This means that lvl2 stuff is significantly more expensive than lvl1, so a lvl1 player can make lots of units and still be a challenge to lvl2. This is already the case for some things, but some standard lvl2 units seem a bit too cheap and tend to make lvl1 units worthless.
SOme things are done really well with lvl1 vs lvl2, such as lvl1 units that have no lvl2 equivalent. The main thing to avoid is making all the lvl2 units heavy duty replacements for lvl1.
Example: bulldogs are just big stumpys, brawlers are just big lvl1 gunships, vamps are just bit freedom fighters, etc. But there's no equivalent to pelicans, mortys, penetrators, dominators, etc. So it can be worthwhile to mix up lvl1 and lvl2 units sometimes.
I would like to recommend that AKs and peewees have a bit stronger armor so they can be useful in the common battle, instead of being raiding units. This will keep them worthwhile even in lvl2 battlegrounds. It's ok to make them cost more. I'd rather the big difference between the lvl1 kbots be attack method, with lesser variance in armor level. Rockos and Thuds would still be superior units due to longer range and greater firepower, and the infantry kbots (ak, peewee) could actually be used for infantry battles instead of mexx raiding.
So, like as been mentioned above, the key to keeping lvl1 in the game longer is making level1 units versatile and useful even in a lvl2 environment. You do this by having the most variety of units at lvl1, by keeping lvl2 costs high, and by giving lvl1 units enough armor to be useful against lvl2 opponents when used in large numbers. Units like XTA's goliath are examples of BAAAD lvl1/lvl2 differences. All lvl2 units should be vulnerable to lvl1 units, so it's more a matter of tactics and management instead of sheer superiority. Not saying that an AA goliath shouldn't eat peewees for lunch, but I am saying that it shouldn't take half a mapful of lvl1 kbots to kill a lvl2 unit.
AA has done a good job so far, but if you want to adjust and improve for the sake of lvl1, I think we've seen some gr8 suggestions in this thread.
Last edited by tanelorn on 29 Jan 2006, 02:25, edited 1 time in total.
Hmmm I kinda like the way level 1 and 2 work at the moment, level1 is useful aginst level2 in large numbers for sure, especially mixed groups of stuff like levellers and thuds.
I dont think level2 needs to be made more expensive - maybe a few extra units for level1 is best, deci's idea about a tank buster is awesome - stuff like that I think is the best road to go down - I think level2 is well balanced metal wise at the moment - I dont think it should be changed too much, if atall.
I know its off topic a little but I love the xta golly ( I play arm xta )
they cost loads and subsequently deal out a load of damage, but are so slow they are stoppable. and you get a lovely wreck worth bout 4000metal hehe Its cool that you can have a couple of units in level 2 that just completely outclass level 1 - just have to make sure they are expensive
Id like to see the golly in aa get a boost again its a little to similar to the bulldog for me (Arm player in aa )
Anyway this could get interesting... any other ideas?
I dont think level2 needs to be made more expensive - maybe a few extra units for level1 is best, deci's idea about a tank buster is awesome - stuff like that I think is the best road to go down - I think level2 is well balanced metal wise at the moment - I dont think it should be changed too much, if atall.
I know its off topic a little but I love the xta golly ( I play arm xta )
they cost loads and subsequently deal out a load of damage, but are so slow they are stoppable. and you get a lovely wreck worth bout 4000metal hehe Its cool that you can have a couple of units in level 2 that just completely outclass level 1 - just have to make sure they are expensive
Id like to see the golly in aa get a boost again its a little to similar to the bulldog for me (Arm player in aa )
Anyway this could get interesting... any other ideas?
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smokeynseinor
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 21 Oct 2004, 12:19
Or sniper or a couple bladewings ^^
Ok, I think I've got a solution figured out... a sort of mix of a bunch of the ideas presented.
Going to decrease moho mex output closer to OTA standards. (AA actually raised moho output by about 20%... this was good in OTA, not so good in Spring for some reason. Let's not speculate, it's just a fact)
Going to make metal makers a bit more viable, but not too much.
Increasing adv solar output to something like 75, (a 50% increase) and increasing their costs by about 60%.
Increasing energy costs of L2 and L3 factories.
Going to make some adjustments to L1 mobile units to somehow make them more powerful without making things unbalanced somehow.
I'll keep all the changes moderate. The bit about the adv solars shouldn't be taken as if it's set in stone, I'm just saying it'll have a bigger output and a cost that's a little on the high side of being proprtional to the increased output.
Ok, I think I've got a solution figured out... a sort of mix of a bunch of the ideas presented.
Going to decrease moho mex output closer to OTA standards. (AA actually raised moho output by about 20%... this was good in OTA, not so good in Spring for some reason. Let's not speculate, it's just a fact)
Going to make metal makers a bit more viable, but not too much.
Increasing adv solar output to something like 75, (a 50% increase) and increasing their costs by about 60%.
Increasing energy costs of L2 and L3 factories.
Going to make some adjustments to L1 mobile units to somehow make them more powerful without making things unbalanced somehow.
I'll keep all the changes moderate. The bit about the adv solars shouldn't be taken as if it's set in stone, I'm just saying it'll have a bigger output and a cost that's a little on the high side of being proprtional to the increased output.
I dunno guys, things seem to be pretty nice where they are as far as unit vs unit balences and usefullness.
The reason I say this is because out of the last 10-20 games I've played in 1.42, if teams are fairly balenced it becomes nearly a stalemate if not completely for some very long and challenging games.
My suggestion would be to add in 1-2 new units per factory per team, that would serve as an intermediary unit between LVL1 and LVL2, like sombody earlier mentioned the Warrior Arm Kbot has no Core counter untill LVL2.
The Warrior is a perfect example of an intermediary unit that closes the gap between LVL1 and LVL2 in terms of firepower and usefullness.
The Shodan unit was a great cross tech Unit for Vehicles LVL1, providing a mobile LLT, its big brother was easily the Penetrator as LVL2, then stepping up on LVL2 Defence is the Annihilator, its a perfect ladder.
Now you need to think in terms of what could Core use to fill those gaps?
Adding cost on top of LVL2 Factories seems like an easy way to prolong use of LVL1, but I think there are better alternatives.
The reason I say this is because out of the last 10-20 games I've played in 1.42, if teams are fairly balenced it becomes nearly a stalemate if not completely for some very long and challenging games.
My suggestion would be to add in 1-2 new units per factory per team, that would serve as an intermediary unit between LVL1 and LVL2, like sombody earlier mentioned the Warrior Arm Kbot has no Core counter untill LVL2.
The Warrior is a perfect example of an intermediary unit that closes the gap between LVL1 and LVL2 in terms of firepower and usefullness.
The Shodan unit was a great cross tech Unit for Vehicles LVL1, providing a mobile LLT, its big brother was easily the Penetrator as LVL2, then stepping up on LVL2 Defence is the Annihilator, its a perfect ladder.
Now you need to think in terms of what could Core use to fill those gaps?
Adding cost on top of LVL2 Factories seems like an easy way to prolong use of LVL1, but I think there are better alternatives.
Smokeysenior
"Tank buster: Heard of a penetrator or banisher?"
Yes actually I have... I play aa quite alot and last time I looked these were both expensive and also Level2
If you read the posts the whole idea behind the tank buster was that you had a LEVEL 1 unit that could be effective against heavy level 2 stuff
Changes seem good so far caydr :)
"Tank buster: Heard of a penetrator or banisher?"
Yes actually I have... I play aa quite alot and last time I looked these were both expensive and also Level2
If you read the posts the whole idea behind the tank buster was that you had a LEVEL 1 unit that could be effective against heavy level 2 stuff
Changes seem good so far caydr :)
Level One units should not be able to annihilate L2 units unless they greatly greatly outnumber the L2 units... there's a lot of strategy involved in getting to L2 on time, and its a vital part of the game. Making a L2 "tank buster" (a role which bladewings and bombers already fulfill btw) would not be very good for balance, IMO.
Im afraid bladewings arent tank busters you need something else to kill the tank and if your opponent has 3 jethros or any kind of flak its goodbye bladewings in less than 0.4 nanoseconds
And as far as bombers go... tank busting I think not, have you ever used level1 bombers?
bout as much use as an inflatable dartboard...
And level2 arent much better...
And as far as bombers go... tank busting I think not, have you ever used level1 bombers?
bout as much use as an inflatable dartboard...
And level2 arent much better...
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
the shodan was a cool unit, but it was expensive as hell and moved only slightly faster than the can.
Caydr raising adv solar output helps.
Kbots need something if you are gonna make the l2 gap longer tho. Core for example. We have the thud. With the changes the storms have gotten better, but for assulting a base you simply need thuds. Storms get killed quickly and can not fire over other units, so I use them as base defence.
Kbots need an arty unit, akin to the shellshocker/wolverine.
The simple fact still remains that core is at a serious disadvantage when going with vehicles. At least arm has the consul that is mobile and helps a lot. Nano towers while perfectly balanced as far as cost and build time goes, are not mobile and when trying to lay down mohos it is a serious pain in the ass, because if I had gone kbots a con and 3 freakers could put up moho's like wildfire.
If you go core, it is currently best to stay kbots till l2 so you can have freakers, and then go to lv 2.
As you have seen when we played on sparewood caydr, I am very good at microing thuds. Since I always go kbots (because of the freaker thing) I have to make sure that my thuds stay alive. The thing I hate is the fact that I am and a serious disadvantage if I go vehicles. I like vehicles. I like wolverines more than any other level 1 unit, but once I actually make it to lv 2 I'm still fucked because I can't build anything quickly.
Grrr, I'm probably not making any sense, but my frustrations are as above.
Caydr raising adv solar output helps.
Kbots need something if you are gonna make the l2 gap longer tho. Core for example. We have the thud. With the changes the storms have gotten better, but for assulting a base you simply need thuds. Storms get killed quickly and can not fire over other units, so I use them as base defence.
Kbots need an arty unit, akin to the shellshocker/wolverine.
The simple fact still remains that core is at a serious disadvantage when going with vehicles. At least arm has the consul that is mobile and helps a lot. Nano towers while perfectly balanced as far as cost and build time goes, are not mobile and when trying to lay down mohos it is a serious pain in the ass, because if I had gone kbots a con and 3 freakers could put up moho's like wildfire.
If you go core, it is currently best to stay kbots till l2 so you can have freakers, and then go to lv 2.
As you have seen when we played on sparewood caydr, I am very good at microing thuds. Since I always go kbots (because of the freaker thing) I have to make sure that my thuds stay alive. The thing I hate is the fact that I am and a serious disadvantage if I go vehicles. I like vehicles. I like wolverines more than any other level 1 unit, but once I actually make it to lv 2 I'm still fucked because I can't build anything quickly.
Grrr, I'm probably not making any sense, but my frustrations are as above.
Cough - Rocko for heavy lvl1 assault, thud for longer range lvl1 arty support - ahem.Kbots need something if you are gonna make the l2 gap longer tho. Core for example. We have the thud. With the changes the storms have gotten better, but for assulting a base you simply need thuds. Storms get killed quickly and can not fire over other units, so I use them as base defence.
Kbots need an arty unit, akin to the shellshocker/wolverine.
Wow, that thought just came to me, never suggested anything like it before, ever...
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... thud#49876
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... thud#51101