Balance problems

[Hermuld]

1) popup has greater range than dominator (core t2 vertical rocket kbot)

2) dt > almost all t1 (mex sweetspot should be higher)

[Jools]

My opinion on these issues:

1) Dominator range: 1200, Core Toaster / Arm Ambusher : 1330

I also checked at xta v. 9.42 and 9.56, and the ranges are the same (Wombat has had range reduced from 1300 to 1150). First I thought that mobile t2 should have greater range than static t1, but since there has been no change in this, why change now? I guess the real issue is LOS of the popup, or that it shoots outside LOS and Radar sometimes (this is just a feeling I have, haven't confirmed this).

Also, dominator should become better now that it's CEG's are not shown outside LOS, and now that the local sounds mode works. Dominators haven't really been targeted by using radar anyway, people just look at where the rocket came from. If these are not shown, and not heard (provided there is no LOS) then I suppose dominator will become more powerful.

2) Is a huge issue and breaks the whole game. How about simply disabling dt:s until they have been fixed?

[Deadnight Warrior]

Or just wait for 93.0 as DT issues are fixed (aka, any unit can destroy them when dealing enough damage)

[Jools]

That is not a good fix. Why can't we have units shoot over the dt:s instead? Or should we just make the mexx higher so that it can be hit?

[pnöpel]

By the way: longrange units are far too powerfull. Please increase costs or decrease range.

[knorke]

the problem is that DT around mexes make mex unraidable by scout/ak/pw.
As I see it, that is the only problem: DT work ok with all other units (llt, mt, hlt etc) so no need to change anything here.

If scouts can kill DT in any reasonable time, the DT would have to have very low hitpoints - so low that it is useless for anything else.
So the only solution is:

we just make the mexx higher so that it can be hit

[pnöpel]

the problem is that DT around mexes make mex unraidable by scout/ak/pw.
As I see it, that is the only problem: DT work ok with all other units (llt, mt, hlt etc) so no need to change anything here.

If scouts can kill DT in any reasonable time, the DT would have to have very low hitpoints - so low that it is useless for anything else.
So the only solution is:

we just make the mexx higher so that it can be hit

Why dont you react on my epic suggestion? Do you think, this isnt a serious issue?

newbie was banned for this post <--haha really funny

[pnöpel]

Plus: the d-gun.

[Jools]

You mean long-range units only, like the dominator? Or also stationary turrets?

What about the D-Gun?

[pnöpel]

First of all, I mean the ships. How can you build at the beach, when you are being bombarded instantly?

[pintle]

First of all, I mean the ships. How can you build at the beach, when you are being bombarded instantly?

Unless balance has massively changed without documentation, making large ships useful pretty much requires more skill than anything else in XTA. They are very rarely a better choice than hovers.

If you are getting bombarded by t2 sea, complaining you cannot build on the shore, you have had at least 15 minutes (assuming a "normal" game) to get set up, before you should be expecting any number of t2 ships of cruiser class or above.

If you are facing any force of t2 sea that achieves critical mass (enough support to prevent counter with same cost or less in air, hovers, or t1 subs) you have failed to harass the enemy enough, or you would have lost to economic brute force whatever they built.

If anything large ships are underpowered. (I don't think they are, I think hovers need a balance pass, especially AA hover)

edit: 1) no porc should outrange starburst launchers, that is straight up broken (discounting guardian/punisher, which has a massive cost penalty and very limited use)

2) fix dt/mex interaction, it 100% breaks the game

[scifi]

bigger mex model <3



ofc you can always increase the 3do size

[Jools]

Even easier would be to just increase the collision volume height. It's a bit haxxy though.

[scifi]

Even easier would be to just increase the collision volume height. It's a bit haxxy though.

dont think its haxxy do it! ;P

we could test it today gogogogog

[Jools]

The solution to move up the model centre of the mdexx won't work; I estimate the DT is about 50% higher than the mexx, and raising the hitposition of the mexx would favour AA-units instead of skirmish ones, which is what we should want.

I and Scifi instead fixed the problem by putting a gap between the dragon's teeth, it should be a quite good solution. It still blocks muich of the AA, but if you micro a scout you can shoot a DT:s mexx. But it requires micro.

The fix is in the svn.

Edit: fixed typo.

[Hermuld]

The solution to move up the model centre of the mdexx won't work; I estimate the DT is about 50% higher than the mexx, and raising the hitposition of the mexx would favour AA-units instead of skirmish ones, which is what we should want.

Just make mex hitbox 100% higher than dt hitbox so any unit can kill mex. Mex has so low hp it even after that can't be used as wall. No micro should be needed to kill it.

[Deadnight Warrior]

The solution to move up the model centre of the mdexx won't work

Wrong, it must be done from a gadget, not from UnitDefs.

I estimate the DT is about 50% higher than the mexx

Wrong, mex CV (and model) is taller than DT CV, it's just that mex's aimpoint is on half of its height, which is bellow the DT CV height

and raising the hitposition of the mexx would favour AA-units instead of skirmish ones, which is what we should want.

Why is that good? Why shouldn't all units have the same conditions of destroying mexes? With Spring 93.x DTs are destructable by any weapon type (when dealt enough damage) and I don't see any problems if a Flash or Instigator has to destroy DT first to attack the mex behind it.

I and Scifi instead fixed the problem by putting a gap between the mexxes, it should be a quite good solution. It still blocks muich of the AA, but if you micro a scout you can shoot a DT:s mexx. But it requires micro.

You narrowed the CV of DTs, not mexes, so the gap is between DTs and not mexes. One can also micro AA units, so a commander/tower/whatever behind DTs can be hit with a lot less trouble than before.

The fix is in the svn.

That "fix" also includes lowering the CV of DTs making them a lot less effective in general.

[Jools]

The solution to move up the model centre of the mdexx won't work

Wrong, it must be done from a gadget, not from UnitDefs.

It won't work because of the relative heights. Anyway, a fix in unitdef is preferable to one in a gadget. I also tried to make it in a gadget, but it didn't have any impact on the mexx. There is already one gadget doing this, the dynamic CV:s. But better to fix the problem at the source.

Why shouldn't all units have the same conditions of destroying mexes?

Because when units are close to the DT they can fire through the holes. From the distance you can't do that and will hit the DT. Logical.

With Spring 93.x DTs are destructable by any weapon type (when dealt enough damage) and I don't see any problems if a Flash or Instigator has to destroy DT first to attack the mex behind it.

That's the other problem. In spring 93, DT:s will die after about 5 hits frokm an instigator. That's way too little hp. So we also reverted some change in their hp from 2400 to 1200 back to 2400 (for arm). It may still be too little hp.

That "fix" also includes lowering the CV of DTs making them a lot less effective in general.

We didn't decrease the vertical height of a dt:s collission volume. Maybe there was some weird vertical offset that I put to default values, but iirc that tag in unitdef doesn't work anymore in any case.

[knorke]

With Spring 93.x DTs are destructable by any weapon type (when dealt enough damage) and I don't see any problems if a Flash or Instigator has to destroy DT first to attack the mex behind it.

The problem is that with current DT, it is impossible to raid with scouts.
In 93.x scouts will be able to destroy the DT but it will take several minutes, so the original problem is not solved.

[Deadnight Warrior]

It won't work because of the relative heights. Anyway, a fix in unitdef is preferable to one in a gadget. I also tried to make it in a gadget, but it didn't have any impact on the mexx. There is already one gadget doing this, the dynamic CV:s. But better to fix the problem at the source.

It will work if the mex's aimpoint is near the top of its CV. Doable by gadget (and only by gadget).

Because when units are close to the DT they can fire through the holes. From the distance you can't do that and will hit the DT. Logical.

The wobble/dance of AA missiles was removed/greatly reduced so they fly in a straight line and can fly through the DT gap you introduced.

That's the other problem. In spring 93, DT:s will die after about 5 hits frokm an instigator. That's way too little hp. So we also reverted some change in their hp from 2400 to 1200 back to 2400 (for arm). It may still be too little hp.

I had to lower it because of current and past issues with DTs being too tough due to engine bug. But it's not 5 hits, as DT has 1200 HP ATM, and instigator does 44 dam, so that's 28 hits. And its reload time is 1s so that's 28 sec to destory a DT and not several minutes, and somewhat less for Flash as it does 60DPS (6 dam, 0.1s reload).

We didn't decrease the vertical height of a dt:s collission volume. Maybe there was some weird vertical offset that I put to default values, but iirc that tag in unitdef doesn't work anymore in any case.

You offseted the entire CV down by 2 (so projectiles can fly over it). Collision Volume Offset works, Model Center Offset was deprecated and moved to gadget. Model center was previously used as aim point, now replaced by dedicated aim point, which defaults to model center.

The problem is that with current DT, it is impossible to raid with scouts.
In 93.x scouts will be able to destroy the DT but it will take several minutes, so the original problem is not solved.

DTs where always designed as extra armour for small buildings, since mexes are small enough to be protected by DTs, it's a valid anti-raid tactic. Any more powerfull unit can either shoot over DTs (anything with a cannon, missiles partly) or has big enough AoE to damage stuff behind DTs.