Think before you reply

[BaNa]

Forb, without going into much detail, i feel that you are blaming the victim in this case and thus are a walking example of the kind of argument that women who are harassed have to face (Indeed, many rape victims too).

I am unsure about the video though, I was expecting it to be much worse based on the link, and while the Islamic cultures treatment of women is unsettling for me, in this concrete instance I feel that (regardless of religion or culture), sexual abuse is a much bigger problem than what is portrayed in the video.

Several of my female friends have been victims of rape and I feel that one of the saddest things is that in many cases the victim feels that they did wrong somehow and they feel a profound shame about the issue which really sets them back in dealing with it and stepping forward. And one of the causes for this kind of shame is the practice of blaming the victim that you demonstrated, forb.

Related: here is a tumblrlog with photos of rape victims standing with sentences that the perpetrators said during the act. Also related, in 25 states of the US, victims of rape have no legal defence if the perpetrator wishes to have custody of the child.

edit: before it would seem like it, I am not trying to blame the US specifically for being shitty in this aspect, as my country is behind on protection from sexual and domestic abuse. They are all shitty.

[AF]

The 'she was asking for it' style excuses are irrelevant, for the same reason that priests claiming that children who were abused attempted to seduce them is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much they wanted you, they were children, you don't do that.


Fortunately for forb, in cases of legitimate objectification, I'm told the female mind has ways of shutting that whole thing down.

[Johannes]

Well I'm no woman but I don't really take offense when people try to talk to me on the streets. Even if they're whores, fags, or ugly.

[PicassoCT]

Its not the attempt to talk, its the how, and the attitude as a whole. If you walked down the street, and every single one you met would aks you like a junky "Got something, man, come on, got them shards?!" and if you reply "hell,no" -you get a
"Asshole, then just dont look like you deal or stay at home.."
"Next time you dont got stuff, i fucking cut you."
"Stay at home, whitebread"

Reply.
Makes life slightly...shitty.

[zwzsg]

Well I'm no woman but I don't really take offense when people try to talk to me on the streets. Even if they're whores, fags, or ugly.

But as a man, it only happens to you once in a blue moon. Were you a woman, it would happen every thirty seconds, every day.

Even something that could have been initially pleasant would become hard to bear when repeated non-stop.

Also, maybe you don't understand their french words, but it's not all compliments. It usually goes "Hey lady you're charming! U no answer? Fuck you ugly bitch!". Though some jump straight to the end line.

[Funkencool]

Were you a woman, it would happen every thirty seconds, every day.

Just so people know, this is not the case everywhere. Where I live this pretty much never Ever happens, woman or man, people are very polite. Not a lie, I never see this... at all.

[KaiserJ]

the guy in the video who walks past the lady, turns his head and calls salope probably has a really hard time meeting women

[smoth]

Some women are, it is a human thing af.

A female(singular), would add little to the discussion as no one perspective is held by all women even within the same culture and religious group.

These discussions are idle chatter going nowhere. Yan's first post was legitimately interesting but only because it speaks to my personal concerns about women's rights in Muslim communities. Even with knowledge being out there, it doesn't matter. Male misogyny will always exist and those beliefs keep incompetent people in in power on a basis of false sexual superiority. There is not point in discussing it, we are not the one who can change that situation

[Azhukar]

There is not point in discussing it, we are not the one who can change that situation

There are people that want to discuss it as evidenced by this thread. The point is the desire to do so. What comes of it is another question. I enjoy discussions regardless of whether they will change the entire world.

Male misogyny will always exist

Culture is not eternal, saying it will never change is ignorant.

[smoth]

There is not point in discussing it, we are not the one who can change that situation

There are people that want to discuss it as evidenced by this thread. The point is the desire to do so. What comes of it is another question. I enjoy discussions regardless of whether they will change the entire world.

"These discussions are idle chatter going nowhere" furthermore I do not expect anyone to feminist up and go protest or confront anyone.

Male misogyny will always exist

Culture is not eternal, saying it will never change is ignorant.

male misogyny is not cultural necessarily. you mistakenly presume I see it as exclusively cultural.

[Funkencool]

Or just pessimism. its not just a culture thing, just like evil will always exist so will it. That doesn't mean it will triumph but unless the human brain changes dramatically there is always a chance someone will come up with same ideal someone has before.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Smoth is right.
We need to back our words and concerns with proper action.
I shell put a sign at my work saying Muslims culture is evil.
Hope that helps the cause .

[smoth]

Go confront them eventually you will cross one of the extremist who will qualify you as an infidel in his jihad and claim your property as his spoils of war.

[Azhukar]

we are not the one who can change that situation

Do you know who can change that situation?

How do you decide who can and who can't?

[smoth]

That is not a reply you are just arguing a different sentence from the earlier post out of context, out of order and providing nothing to continue on. If you are going to keep quoting bits and pieces our of context I will not give you the conversation you crave.

[SwiftSpear]

Women aren't utterly incomprehensible beings who think in a completely different way, a lot of the things that confuse men are things men themselves experience, or are perfectly rational given their circumstances.

Sure I can be pretty sure I don't know what having a period or child birth is like, but being a man doesn't mean I can't experience a lot of the psychological things women face, there's nothing innately female about sexual objectification ( and being gay or heterosexual has no bearing on that, go and show me a random 100 men off the street and show them a magazine with a full frontal naked man on the cover as art not porn, and tell me they're not uncomfortable with the objectification )

I think the point of tension is that all but a few people do not want to be a "sexual object" where as most people do want to be sexually attractive. The issue is that it's hard to draw the line on the point at which objectification happens. Many people believe objectification is entirely within the purview of the viewer, and it is not the displayer's fault what the viewer perceives.

Forb's stance is effectively "it's common sense that the displayer is sending messages, and if they will hold the former opinion at some level they deserve the misinterpretation of their message"

I think the claim that "because no one likes to be objectified, no one should ever interpret those types of messages that way" is a bit naive, especially when you yourself say you feel a bit uncomfortable viewing imagery you feel is objectifying of females.

Your argument effectively comes down to "this doesn't make sense to my culture, and therefore it's wrong/bad" and that's kind of exactly the point, it doesn't make sense to our culture, that's why when we see this we find it so shocking. The question is, is our culture right in putting the lines where we've drawn them? I don't think Forb would fully claim that he totally supports the men walking down the street effectively harassing this woman, what's he's saying is there's defensibly to what is going on.

[PicassoCT]

Cultures where man dont have to proof there worthiness to a woman, by his own creations and merits, might be longterm stable, but from there on its a mathematically question. If a have a dice with near infinite sides, one of them reading "Ultimate Catastrophe: Planet on the rocks" and you throw said dice indefinatly, you get the strange scenario that some conservative judge/preacher, who believes to do the right thing (at that very moment by limiting social unrest, caused by a woman walking by unemployed man who couldnt afford such lifes.) is killing humanity 10.000 years down the row, because face it, a unmoving target will be hit one day, by more then wars/religious upheavel due to overpopulation.

[Funkencool]

My phone's going to die (I know, phones... ) and I've probably had to many beers but basically all i want to say is; I agree with Swift, that's pretty much what I've been trying to communicate.

Although very personally, I can agree or disagree with even myself depending on the validity of the point, i.e. I'm very neutral and almost always leaning on the fence.

Edit: so basically I'm just saying I tl;dr your post picasso, even though I respect them (too drunk)

[Forboding Angel]

My point of contention is that she went out purposefully seeking this type of behavior, then feigns shock when it happens.

It is BS and it throws a wet blanket over the fact that in some cases shit like this actually happens, but this dog and pony show deflates the entire "supposed" purpose.

[SwiftSpear]

Cultures where man dont have to proof there worthiness to a woman, by his own creations and merits, might be longterm stable, but from there on its a mathematically question. If a have a dice with near infinite sides, one of them reading "Ultimate Catastrophe: Planet on the rocks" and you throw said dice indefinatly, you get the strange scenario that some conservative judge/preacher, who believes to do the right thing (at that very moment by limiting social unrest, caused by a woman walking by unemployed man who couldnt afford such lifes.) is killing humanity 10.000 years down the row, because face it, a unmoving target will be hit one day, by more then wars/religious upheavel due to overpopulation.

The question is, how much worse is it that the face on that dice says "women are to be controlled" than that there's a face on the dice that says "women are objects not people"

Although, I'd propose that in cultures like the one we're looking at in Belgium, both are an issue to a greater degree in general than we see in the west, and I think that makes a strong case that things at least appear to be better here.