Think before you reply

[PicassoCT]

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/trailer-doc ... nt-belgium

http://www.opendemocracy.net/markha-val ... f-equality

Its not a nice vid. Its a normal woman. Going down a street getting harrassed.

I know its difficult, but just dont light the fire. Thanks.

[edit] Removed flamable material. -SwiftSpear

[Das Bruce]

FYI:

[Azhukar]

This is an interesting insight on a very similar issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIjfnpPCsg

Lack of empathy is a big factor.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The non covered woman fails in presenting arguments against covering up properly.
The major issue is that muslim women, who live in muslim communities in France and elsewhere are pressured to cover up or they will be teased abused or even physically hurt.
Some of these women come from very oppressive regimes, especially for women, and they enter muslim communities of immigrants that tend to bring these same issues with them from their home countries.
In some muslim countries state law directly oppresses women.
This is something that is not acceptable in liberal democratic countries that charish human rights.
The law comes to ensures, as much as possible, that women will not be oppressed because of living in communities formed from immigrants from the countries in which these women were originally oppressed in.
any religion or religious rights should never trump human rights.
There is only so much bullsh*t secular people should accept from religious cults.

[Azhukar]

The law comes to ensures, as much as possible, that women will not be oppressed because of living in communities formed from immigrants from the countries in which these women were originally oppressed in.

It ensures nobody can wear certain clothes. It does not prevent oppression. It's censorship and a very heavy handed way to make an issue go away, not help solve it.

If a women is oppressed to the point where she is forced to wear certain clothes, banning said clothes will not remove the oppression. It hides the symptom, not the cause.

The woman in video chose to wear the clothes of her own reasons, one of which is being treated based on her brain and not her body. That alone is very telling of the core issues present.

[AF]

Are there any statistics on the number and post activity of females on this forum? I'd quite like to see a non-male opinion on this subject

[Azhukar]

I'd quite like to see a non-male opinion on this subject

Does someones gender influence how you perceive their opinion?

Half the worlds population is female. There are at least 2 women with opposing views. Which of these women's opinion do you want to see?

[Das Bruce]

Does someones gender influence how you perceive their opinion?

It influences how they experience the world, as evidenced by the street harrassment video, and consequently informs their opinion in ways other genders might not be.

[Azhukar]

It influences how they experience the world, as evidenced by the street harrassment video, and consequently informs their opinion in ways other genders might not be.

Does every woman have experience with said harassment? My point is that your gender has very little to do with what you have to say.

Asking for an opinion on a topic merely because of gender vs asking for an opinion based on past experiences are different things.

[Forboding Angel]

Attitude and body language make up a lot of unspoken conversation.

My point being, if someone goes out with a video camera, someone taping her, and acts like someone who thinks they will be bothered, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy doesn't it?

Also, someone attempting to talk to you on the street is not harassment, but walking away when someone addresses you is perceived as rude, which is probably why people trying to talk to her would follow. If she had simply stopped, and given the guy the time of day, he probably wouldn't have pursued it.

To quote a very relevant truth. Where women are concerned, the only thing worse than being treated as a sex object, is not being treated as one.

You can't have it both ways, and many women seem to think that they can, which is just nuts.

[Das Bruce]

Forb has just posted what I foresee as possibly being a controversial opinion. Please remain calm and continue posting in rational and polite fashion.

[Azhukar]

Attitude and body language make up a lot of unspoken conversation.

My point being, if someone goes out with a video camera, someone taping her, and acts like someone who thinks they will be bothered, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy doesn't it?

The camera is not visible to people. I haven't seen her doing anything provocative. I see this behavior in our capitol regularly, people making advances or sexual comments about random people passing by.

Also, someone attempting to talk to you on the street is not harassment, but walking away when someone addresses you is perceived as rude, which is probably why people trying to talk to her would follow. If she had simply stopped, and given the guy the time of day, he probably wouldn't have pursued it.

There is no obligation to spend time with people on the street. On several occasions she clearly says no to a courting offer, followed by receiving insults. This is the issue presented.

What would you suggest someone in her position is supposed to do?

To quote a very relevant truth. Where women are concerned, the only thing worse than being treated as a sex object, is not being treated as one.

You can't have it both ways, and many women seem to think that they can, which is just nuts.

There is no plea for attention going on. It's just walking down the street.

[AF]

Because an all male panel isn't qualified to rule on female contraception, why should an all male forum be able to have a qualified discussion about female abuse? We're inherently onesided

@forb

I don't want to be seen as a sex object, and many of the people on this forum do not ( some have made it known that they do on numerous occasions ). Whereas in other circumstances I've been objectified. Sometimes it's desired, sometimes it makes me uncomfortable, it has a time and a place. It's flattering to have someone salivating over how delicious they find me, it shows someone doesn't find me repulsive but I like to know that people see me as more than a piece of meat

It happens to pretty much everyone, male or female, it's just most males I've encountered couldn't care less and are utterly oblivious to it, it doesn't even register on their radar, at any level of awareness.

Still, it makes me a little uncomfortable seeing arbitrary shots of womens navel areas randomly thrown in to movies ads and even documentaries, yet it's rarely done to men on the same scale. Maybe women with money burning a hole in their pockets might be influenced by nice looking men? Maybe they want to see 'shots' of good looking guys?

Maybe they don't want a barely concealed full screen tit shot in a childrens cereal commercial...

[Azhukar]

Because an all male panel isn't qualified to rule on female contraception, why should an all male forum be able to have a qualified discussion about female abuse? We're inherently onesided.

If someone is well versed in anatomy / biology etc. then it does not matter what gender he is when he's talking about medical issues. (@ contraception)

If you mean the political side where logic and sane reasoning go out the window for political correctness or equal representation regardless of knowledge then I couldn't care less for such discussion approach.

You do not need different genitals to understand different issues.

[KingRaptor]

There's nothing that says men cannot discuss issues facing women. Many men do so every day without problems.

The trouble occurs when men presume without basis to know more about/be more familiar with women's issues than the women they're speaking to. Especially if they clearly don't, and/or if they expect women to accept attitudes/actions that they would never personally accept if it was directed at them, or if they use completely unsubstantiated generalizations. Feminist circles refer to this behavior as "mansplaining".

By the way, this applies to any axis of privilege. Substitute men/women with white people/people of color, hetero/gay, rich/poor, able-bodied/disabled as needed.


On sexual harassment: here have this video (it's in French but you get the gist easily enough)

[Funkencool]

It is true that neither side can fully understand the others perspective, and there is always multiple perspectives. Just as a man might not fully understand a women's perspective of the situation, a women might not fully understand a man's perspective of the situation. Not trying to defend anyone.

And just a little more:
Make-up (or more so how necessary girls think it is)
and this

Things like this ingrained in culture don't help at all.

[Forboding Angel]

@forb
I don't want to be seen as a sex object, and many of the people on this forum do not

You're male. You may like other men, but that doesn't automatically mean that your brain works like a woman's brain does.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Attitude and body language make up a lot of unspoken conversation.

My point being, if someone goes out with a video camera, someone taping her, and acts like someone who thinks they will be bothered, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy doesn't it?

Also, someone attempting to talk to you on the street is not harassment, but walking away when someone addresses you is perceived as rude, which is probably why people trying to talk to her would follow. If she had simply stopped, and given the guy the time of day, he probably wouldn't have pursued it.

To quote a very relevant truth. Where women are concerned, the only thing worse than being treated as a sex object, is not being treated as one.

You can't have it both ways, and many women seem to think that they can, which is just nuts.

Isn't this thread called think before you reply?

[Peet]

Isn't this thread called think before you reply?

Some thinks are better than others.

[AF]

Women aren't utterly incomprehensible beings who think in a completely different way, a lot of the things that confuse men are things men themselves experience, or are perfectly rational given their circumstances.

Sure I can be pretty sure I don't know what having a period or child birth is like, but being a man doesn't mean I can't experience a lot of the psychological things women face, there's nothing innately female about sexual objectification ( and being gay or heterosexual has no bearing on that, go and show me a random 100 men off the street and show them a magazine with a full frontal naked man on the cover as art not porn, and tell me they're not uncomfortable with the objectification )