Meh money are stupid.
I would just remove them...
Yes you need some system to allocate resources efficiently, but it should be reinvented from scratch and designed properly instead of letting random cultural evolution to define it.
We now know a lot about complex systems and about human behavior to invent something better.
World Financial Crisis Explained
Moderator: Moderators
-
Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
Greed, for better or worse is a fundamental human trait. It's why monetary systems and our society in general work in the first place.
People always want to design a new system that will be free of greed. Unfortunately, it will never be so. We aren't built that way.
People always want to design a new system that will be free of greed. Unfortunately, it will never be so. We aren't built that way.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
Evidence? Research shows that humans are social animals, selfish greed is no more natural than desire to belong, share and help your community. In primitive societies chiefs had to share a lot and dont have more.
Humans want recognition and comfy life - wecan have comfy life for all instead of private jets for several and suffering for billions. Recognition and reward does not need to mean material goods and exploitation of others.
Humans want recognition and comfy life - wecan have comfy life for all instead of private jets for several and suffering for billions. Recognition and reward does not need to mean material goods and exploitation of others.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
No more - but no less. And hunger is way lower in the maslow pyramid.Research shows that humans are social animals, selfish greed is no more natural than desire to belong, share and help your community. In primitive societies chiefs had to share a lot and dont have more.
Otherwise agreed, even if you're advocating a cyber-socialist agenda. I can live with the latter just like i can live with neo-capitalism.
But establishing such a system is a major feat, and i doubt it can be done without bloodshed. Last time someone tried a cyber-economy of even a minor sort, they got a cia-backed coup'd'etat and junta rule for decades to come.
Oh, how about we take from GTA and replace Fiat Currency with Respect is Everything? :D
So basically you get coffee in the coffee shop based on how much the shop owner Respects you, and if you cause disrespect, no coffee.
(either that, or bitcoins. can't inflate bitcoins.)
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
No.. humans have not proven to be good or proven to be bad. They were proven to be copycats.. if you see someone acting nice, you copy him, and if you see your boss acting like a asshole, you copy his behaviour (or profit from it which is the same).
Now if you try to implement paradise on earth (ignoring limited ressources) you take the psychopathic triballeaders, and put them into a limiting enviroment, were they immediatly start to reorganize there minature feudal system- not as a company, but as a bureaucracy - which resulted in a tremendous black market which basically just undos your attempt to organize paradise on earth.
You may attempt to solve this problem by screaming traitor from time to time, and whacking the most obvious mole over the head- or by simply performing a temporary genocide (killing the bureaucratic hydras head), resulting in new tribal leaders (who until this moment just were gangleaders- capitalist with no money, no ressources, but human : D) taking there places within days.. so to say it short.
Socialism would work.. without humans. But as you have humans, you have to accept the conditio humana- which includes murderious psychopaths and there blind followers in the package. Now we found out- that if we make a system, were they have to fight continously for there power- they exaust each other. In the end, you have someone, whos have to keep on the tip of his toes all the time, while beneath him the mills of powers grinds thousand similar wanna-be tribal chiefs to dust. We call it representive democracy. Its not nice. Its a huge waste. But humany is not made out of copies of you, and we have to do with what we got. So we get along.
Problem is, that outside of the mill, some people have played the old feudal game, and gained more power then they should have.. so we need a mill, so they can fight each other to exaustion.
I guess really solving the economy running free- would be a scalar tax system. Accepting that companys have a fixxed part of power (around 30 %) and then letting them fight it out - in secret via taxdollares, how much percent of that 30 are theres.
Tl,dr; Too longitude, in realism,
Now if you try to implement paradise on earth (ignoring limited ressources) you take the psychopathic triballeaders, and put them into a limiting enviroment, were they immediatly start to reorganize there minature feudal system- not as a company, but as a bureaucracy - which resulted in a tremendous black market which basically just undos your attempt to organize paradise on earth.
You may attempt to solve this problem by screaming traitor from time to time, and whacking the most obvious mole over the head- or by simply performing a temporary genocide (killing the bureaucratic hydras head), resulting in new tribal leaders (who until this moment just were gangleaders- capitalist with no money, no ressources, but human : D) taking there places within days.. so to say it short.
Socialism would work.. without humans. But as you have humans, you have to accept the conditio humana- which includes murderious psychopaths and there blind followers in the package. Now we found out- that if we make a system, were they have to fight continously for there power- they exaust each other. In the end, you have someone, whos have to keep on the tip of his toes all the time, while beneath him the mills of powers grinds thousand similar wanna-be tribal chiefs to dust. We call it representive democracy. Its not nice. Its a huge waste. But humany is not made out of copies of you, and we have to do with what we got. So we get along.
Problem is, that outside of the mill, some people have played the old feudal game, and gained more power then they should have.. so we need a mill, so they can fight each other to exaustion.
I guess really solving the economy running free- would be a scalar tax system. Accepting that companys have a fixxed part of power (around 30 %) and then letting them fight it out - in secret via taxdollares, how much percent of that 30 are theres.
Tl,dr; Too longitude, in realism,
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
Licho while in general I agree, I feel you are stating things in a very polarized way, it may not be your intent but it feels this way.Licho wrote:Humans want recognition and comfy life - wecan have comfy life for all instead of private jets for several and suffering for billions. Recognition and reward does not need to mean material goods and exploitation of others.
People want VARYING levels of comforts and recognition. Many people are comfortable without personal jets. So yes, I do agree that recognition and reward to NOT need to mean these things but for SOME people they do and THOSE people exploit anything and everything to get it. They do not care about others and will cheat, lie and steal whatever they can because there is something lacking in them.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
i know realism is futile.. but well nine billion people.. on the same planet.. people will want food, people will want clothing, people will want shelter and healthcare.. so private jets for noone.
electric Daydreams for all- electrons are cheap to produce, easy to distribute, and keep people busy for days. Yep, the tribal leaders have to go for this- and they will go.
electric Daydreams for all- electrons are cheap to produce, easy to distribute, and keep people busy for days. Yep, the tribal leaders have to go for this- and they will go.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
There were times when a private jet was needed for business but now we have video conferencing etc. A private jet is just wasting money, I understand some big business deals go better if in person but it has always struck me as fucking dumb, just fly coach.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
The fact that you have functional societies with more sharing and less economic inequality and the fact that those have happier, healthier and more trusting populations than more divisive countries like USA or UK imo shows that it can be done.
It can be done within framework of current democratical system and without crazy draconic changes.
It can be done within framework of current democratical system and without crazy draconic changes.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
I don't know if I agree, feel free to accuse me of bias but I don't like all or none perspectives. It is through a mix of different ideas that you will find people being happy.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
Lets see how many post this thread can get before it get's locked...
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
Humans are social animals in small tribes but you put a billion people into one society and people will only empathize with the ones they know personally.
Whining about capitalism won't get us anywhere. Greece lied about the debts they were making (pretending their deficits were low enough to be accepted into the Euro) until the Papandreou government got in charge and noticed the cooked books, then shit hit the fan.
BTW, the country that brought you national socialism and marxism? Top of the pile economically. Don't whine about social systems, Germany has the oldest one and isn't going bankrupt from it. One advantage of Germany was the resistance to the mortgage bubble, Germans tend to rent, not buy and there was a minor bubble back in the early 2000s so there was no demand for mortgages when the big bubble bloated up.
Oh and we just prevented our conservative/libertarian govt coalition from making tax cuts. The population didn't want those cuts. Meanwhile unemployment is decreasing and the economy growing. There are many theories on the why, some say it's all due to other countries losing their own ability to export stuff but we are also making a lot of money from China. I don't know if other countries could experience a similar economy growth in these times but it's certainly not a problem with social systems or regulated markets.
Whining about capitalism won't get us anywhere. Greece lied about the debts they were making (pretending their deficits were low enough to be accepted into the Euro) until the Papandreou government got in charge and noticed the cooked books, then shit hit the fan.
BTW, the country that brought you national socialism and marxism? Top of the pile economically. Don't whine about social systems, Germany has the oldest one and isn't going bankrupt from it. One advantage of Germany was the resistance to the mortgage bubble, Germans tend to rent, not buy and there was a minor bubble back in the early 2000s so there was no demand for mortgages when the big bubble bloated up.
Oh and we just prevented our conservative/libertarian govt coalition from making tax cuts. The population didn't want those cuts. Meanwhile unemployment is decreasing and the economy growing. There are many theories on the why, some say it's all due to other countries losing their own ability to export stuff but we are also making a lot of money from China. I don't know if other countries could experience a similar economy growth in these times but it's certainly not a problem with social systems or regulated markets.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
so far it has been civil, don't jinx please :).Karl wrote:Lets see how many post this thread can get before it get's locked...
No doubt kdr, I think that pure capitalism/socialism is bad but getting a balance of the two is GOOD. I don't like either paradigm in the way they are typically presented. People in C coutries think S countries are bad and inverse situation as well. I think it is because of the larger Red team vs Blue team polarization those in power like to use to unite the populace, because a common enemy unites people.
Re: World Financial Crisis Explained
Social-democratic would be a better term for your post, Smoth.
Unless you mean it in purely economic sense - and then all countries are socialist to some extent or another, all economies are 'mixed'. Even if public school boys like to pretend otherwise.
Unless you mean it in purely economic sense - and then all countries are socialist to some extent or another, all economies are 'mixed'. Even if public school boys like to pretend otherwise.