Another balance considerations

[albator]

BAlanced suggestions

General remark: I like BA as it is: unit should have a use as specific as possible to avoid the "click and hope for the best" behavior of the player


The one I think are really necessary:


Pakage 1: make all those 3 changes at once

- panther: +30 % E-cost: discuss 100 times: panther is spammable by engineer and have 2 weapons, that is the better click and hope for the best unit.
- croc ! +30% E-cost: Croc is amphibious and you are supposed to pay for that ability.
- T3 arm amphib : remove AA missile (unit is fast, amphib, good hp, that is ultimate raider and core cannot stop it without blades on FFA)


T3 arm bantha : decrease EMP resistance : 50% -> 20%, +10% M-cost
cans: remove AA abilities

Mortier: +20 % E-cost


The one I would like to see if the MM econny change here after is adopted:


Doomstay : + 20% E/M-cost
Fatboy : -15% hp
goliat : hp 7k -> 6k
Sniper: + 15 % M-cost
Mortier: + 15 % E-cost (in addition of last nerf)


Metal Maker economy nerf


The main reason why T2 unit are not used is: making advanced fusion give you such a huge eco advantage, that the time you build some t2 unit (that are quit slow), and the time they reach the front, the ennemy spend the same amount of ressource to building a advanced fusion and a few defence. Then you are just over ecoed and u die. That surely is case depend but in order to damp this behavious, I suggest to nerf the exponnantial MM ecommy using a progressive decreasing MM efficiency


MM : metal maker
Eff_cur: Current Metal maker efficiency
Eff_new: New Metal maker efficiency
E_conv: Energy converted using metal maker
Eff_inf: Metal maker efficiency when E_conv reach infinity

I propose new MM efficiency: Eff_new

Eff_new = Eff_cur * ( (1+Eff_inf)/2 + (1-Eff_inf)/PI Atan((E_conv-E_threshold)/tau)))

With :

Eff_inf = 0.7
E_threshold = 3000
tau= 500

Basically, that means your MM efficency, starts around the current one; then go down to 0.85 at +3000E converted and it goes futher down (0.7 Eff_cur at infinity). This way, the guy that invested into economy get less reward that the one that invested into unit.
And the reason I dont want to increase cost of Energy building (fusion, etc...) is you sill need a lot of energy to produce unit / rez unit.

Number are to be discuss but I guess that could be a good idea. Please give constructive feed back.



Edit: unit I thing there is a problem with :


Those unit are: best click and hope for the best unit and should get a more specific use but is is kinda hard to thing about what to do

- Karganeth
- Razorback

[Ares]

I would agree with:
Doomstay : + 10% E/M-cost
Fatboy : - 5 to 10% hp

Disagree with:
goliath : hp 7k -> 6k
Sniper: + 15 % M-cost
Mortier: + 15 % E-cost (in addition of last nerf)

Also I disapprove of your justification for MM eco nerf
"The main reason why T2 unit are not used is: making advanced fusion give you such a huge eco advantage"

I think MM are just right for 1on1s and small games, balancing risk versus a small reward (though generally not worth building compared to map control and mexes).

Regarding experimental balance I think reducing gantry costs while considerably increasing unit costs would be a good change (Krogoth is the most appropriately priced experimental imo). I think experimentals of any nature feel more significant and powerful when there are fewer of them in play. Rather than the current system of mass production, I think the larger quantity that they are produced in the less cost-efficient they should become.

Currently, (in large games, 1v1s never get far enough to comment) t3 makes t2 assault units almost completely redundant, just because they are so much more cost effective. At the moment variety on the battlefield is severely restricted late game. It would be good to see main battle tanks and t2 remaining a viable option based on cost/effectiveness longer into the game.

[albator]

I think MM are just right for 1on1s and small games, balancing risk versus a small reward (though generally not worth building compared to map control and mexes).

.

Did you actually get that is was a progressive nerf ? ...

In 1v1, that does not impact MMconersion till u get a few fusion fully dedicated to MM convertion...

Regarding experimental balance I think reducing gantry costs while considerably increasing unit costs would be a good change (Krogoth is the most appropriately priced experimental imo). I think experimentals of any nature feel more significant and powerful when there are fewer of them in play. Rather than the current system of mass production, I think the larger quantity that they are produced in the less cost-efficient they should become.

-1

That would encourage ecoing more since u need lot of eco to do them.
That would actaully ecourage even more MM econnomy: I dont want BA to be simcity.

Plus you will need to remove every single unit that is not really expensive to keep the dynamic of the game right (otherwise, people rush a good cheap t3 unit since gantry is cheap) which will damage game play and need complete new t3 units

[Johannes]

I don't think MM change like that is good, best to not make the core mechanics more complex like that. If you want changes to fusion spam, raising their m cost or lowering hp, or both, would be more straightforward solutions I think.
In any case best way to deal with too MM-focused econ spamming gameplay is better maps, more sensible ways to attack enemy bases, more room to maneuver and some more contested mexes (but not too much that are easily holdable, that leads to equally boring slippery slope and too much importance on holding/taking 1 front).
For example, if you take Throne or similar maps, a (land) player with MM-based economy is easy to remove the head of the snake so to speak, whereas someone who's sprinkled dozens of mexes and moho mexes cannot be struck down in 1 blow like that.


And I see no reason to nerf Fatboy. Just compare it to Goliath, really... Slower by 1/3rd, dps way less than half, less hp... And cost difference is not much, tho it can pass more cliffs, yes. But still it's much worse than goli in any situation where climbing isn't a strict necessity.
I'd like to see it get back the range that was taken away from it, so it could outrange pitbulls/vipers again (yes I'm aware it couldn't shoot to full range on some rare high gravity maps like DSD). If in turn it receives a HP nerf, that's fine too. But agreeing with Fatboy nerfs and not with Goli ones is a bit inconsistent, no?

[albator]

I don't think MM change like that is good, best to not make the core mechanics more complex like that. If you want changes to fusion spam, raising their m cost or lowering hp, or both, would be more straightforward solutions I think.

THat exactly what I wanted to avoid: I want to avoid the incease of the cost of energy, that the reason why MM progressive nerf is better imo.

And I see no reason to nerf Fatboy. Just compare it to Goliath, really... Slower by 1/3rd, dps way less than half, less hp... And cost difference is not much, tho it can pass more cliffs, yes. But still it's much worse than goli in any situation where climbing isn't a strict necessity.

This nerf was only if MM nerf was adopted cause fatboy is easy porc break and is spammable from engineer really fast after u reclaim t2 fact. Plus it includes an even stronger nerf from Goliat, so the comparison turn in favor of fatboy, not goliat...

[Johannes]

-15% hp nerf or -16,7% is effectively same thing.

And how is fatboy good at breaking porc? It's ok at killing masses of t1 units, but it can't win against pitbull/viper at all and vs t1 turrets a lot of units do a faster job - practically any unit (shellshocker, fido, luger, etc etc) with enough range takes t1 turrets down faster than fatboy. Goli on the other hand takes those turrets down in ok time since it has >2x dps for cost.

[albator]

well, those changes are really the ones I care about anyway:

Pakage 1: make all those 3 changes at once

- panther: +30 % E-cost: discuss 100 times: panther is spammable by engineer and have 2 weapons, that is the better click and hope for the best unit.
- croc ! +30% E-cost: Croc is amphibious and you are supposed to pay for that ability.
- T3 arm amphib : remove AA missile (unit is fast, amphib, good hp, that is ultimate raider and core cannot stop it without blades on FFA)


T3 arm bantha : decrease EMP resistance : 50% -> 20%, +10% M-cost
cans: remove AA abilities

Mortier: +20 % E-cost

[klapmongool]

Except that any changes made should really be nothing more than minor changes.

[albator]

Except that any changes made should really be nothing more than minor changes.

I was hoping for argument, number you know.

If I tell you "good should prevail over evil" noone will care either...

[klapmongool]

Except that any changes made should really be nothing more than minor changes.

I was hoping for argument, number you know.

If I tell you "good should prevail over evil" noone will care either...

Well, it was more of an reminder for everyone involved. Big changes in balance most likely create op units or tactics. So keep the changes small.

I didn't really understand what you are trying to solve. Maybe you can elaborate on that? One thing that struck me as weird is you saying that T2 is hardly used.