hell no
hell no
and hell no to the ak suggested changes.
Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]
Moderator: Moderators
AK's were already better than peewees. This makes it so they are even better.
I could see the need for the buff on the gator, as it was painfully weak, but the AK's just pwn now and the peewee's are supposed to be the arm counter unit.
AK's can almost pwn a flash now. Which to me, is a bit too powerful. With 2 ppl with good unit control, the AK will lose, but the flash will be extremely low on life. With the flash costing almost 3x that of an AK, its a shoe in to go AK as 2 will kill a flash no problem (unless the dude is an idiot and doesn't keep them moving + firing).
Peewee's are just left in the dust.
I could see the need for the buff on the gator, as it was painfully weak, but the AK's just pwn now and the peewee's are supposed to be the arm counter unit.
AK's can almost pwn a flash now. Which to me, is a bit too powerful. With 2 ppl with good unit control, the AK will lose, but the flash will be extremely low on life. With the flash costing almost 3x that of an AK, its a shoe in to go AK as 2 will kill a flash no problem (unless the dude is an idiot and doesn't keep them moving + firing).
Peewee's are just left in the dust.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Ak's better than peewees? Are you out of your mind?
1 ak vs 1 peewee before changes. Peewee wins. Ak's have always been inferior, just no one really spoke out about it because it didn't really matter.
Nice general statement about ak's and flash, care to back that up with a replay? No? I didn't think so.
1 ak vs 1 peewee before changes. Peewee wins. Ak's have always been inferior, just no one really spoke out about it because it didn't really matter.
Nice general statement about ak's and flash, care to back that up with a replay? No? I didn't think so.
AK damage works out to about 105 per second, EMG works out to 120. AKs have about 5-10% longer range, but about 150 less armor. Your arguments are sound though, I might reduce AK damage by about 5-10 per second in next version. Someone also complained about the amount of time it takes a peewee to go from walking stance to firing stance - I'll see if I can reduce that a bit to make them ready for action faster.
I think the best thing to change would be the amount of time it takes for a peewee to go from seeing an enemy and it being in range, to moving its arms and starting to blast away at it. AKs make for better super-early scouts than peewees because they can be micro-d to quite a bit of an advantage because of their slightly longer range. But the fact is, once the game is out of that stage and battles are consisting of 5 or more units on both sides, the advantage quickly disappears as micro-ing because difficult or impossible. This is when peewees really show their colours - they are far far superior fighting units to AKs - the extra HP, the much faster firing rate, the greater damage - in short, they are the best level 1 anti-unit kbot in the game for their cost. Now, warriors eat them for breakfast, but that's a different story.
The faster firing rate makes a big difference. Imagine an AK missing one shot - that's 75 damage down the drain permanently. If a peewee misses one or even as many as 7 shots per second, it's still ahead of the game. And as the number of units involved in battles increase, their odds of missing anything decreases.
I can see what you mean about AKs fighting flash tanks, that's something I'll have to look into... I would thing that a single Flash would be able to handle 2 AKs with a little life to spare at least.
@ "Maddox", I know what you mean about artillery, but if I was to make them low-arc again I'd have to greatly reduce their area of effect and impulsefactor, making them useless against everything they're good for now. I could make corresponding increases to Merl-type units, I suppose, but... I dunno... I kind of like them the way they are. I'll take it into consideration though, and if there's a way to improve things I'll see what I can do. Having the impulsefactor tag now makes a lot of previously impossible stuff, possible.
I think the best thing to change would be the amount of time it takes for a peewee to go from seeing an enemy and it being in range, to moving its arms and starting to blast away at it. AKs make for better super-early scouts than peewees because they can be micro-d to quite a bit of an advantage because of their slightly longer range. But the fact is, once the game is out of that stage and battles are consisting of 5 or more units on both sides, the advantage quickly disappears as micro-ing because difficult or impossible. This is when peewees really show their colours - they are far far superior fighting units to AKs - the extra HP, the much faster firing rate, the greater damage - in short, they are the best level 1 anti-unit kbot in the game for their cost. Now, warriors eat them for breakfast, but that's a different story.
The faster firing rate makes a big difference. Imagine an AK missing one shot - that's 75 damage down the drain permanently. If a peewee misses one or even as many as 7 shots per second, it's still ahead of the game. And as the number of units involved in battles increase, their odds of missing anything decreases.
I can see what you mean about AKs fighting flash tanks, that's something I'll have to look into... I would thing that a single Flash would be able to handle 2 AKs with a little life to spare at least.
@ "Maddox", I know what you mean about artillery, but if I was to make them low-arc again I'd have to greatly reduce their area of effect and impulsefactor, making them useless against everything they're good for now. I could make corresponding increases to Merl-type units, I suppose, but... I dunno... I kind of like them the way they are. I'll take it into consideration though, and if there's a way to improve things I'll see what I can do. Having the impulsefactor tag now makes a lot of previously impossible stuff, possible.
Any comments about giving the lvl1 infantry bots (peewee, AK) more staying power but keeping original firepower?
In other words, helping them survive more hits but keeping their damage relatively low? They are infantry, after all, and if we're gonna use them for infantry, they shouldn't burst into flames the instant they see the slightest enemy defenses. They die by the dozens from Punisher area affect hits... it's just a massacre. When level 1 defenses are capable of destroying level 1 primary assault units bunches at a time, it makes me think those units need a bit of a boost in HP.
I get concerns about balance when I see armies of peewees and especially AKs get slaughtered in the first few seconds of assaults against fairly weak defenses.
Even if they are cheap, there is a point where the ratio of expense / hp + firepower does not make sense. Example: fleas. Fleas are not for attacking, they die too quickly. But AKs die very quickly too, and they are slated as infantry kbots. Yet, an offensive kbot isn't valuable when it has a short range weapon and can be killed in droves by simple defenses.
In my opinion, the cost ratio game balance concept fails on the low and the high extreme of the list. AKs are too low HP to be valuable infantry, no matter how cheap they are. On the other hand, Krogoths and the ARM equivalent (whatever it is) are too high in HP to be in the game at all. On one end, the AK dies when attacked by pretty much anything. On the other end, it takes pretty much EVERYTHING to stop a Krogoth. THese are at the extreme end of the cost ratio balance scale, and both are trouble.
So, at the low end, it's a waste of units to use AKs as assault infantry kbots, which they are labeled as and intended for. Even tho they are cheap, they are also too low in HP to make for good attack units.
On the high end, Krogoths / Orcones can only be stopped if there is a concentrated and specialized defense in place to stop them. ANything less than this high concentration of defenses will not stop them and they will proceed to destroy everything the victim player has. Even tho they are very expensive, they are also so high in HP that a single unit is unstoppable unless special and expensive countermeasures are in place.
In both cases, both ends of the spectrum, the balance is broken because the resource cost / hp / firepower ratio approach to game balance doesn't work at such extremes.
In other words, helping them survive more hits but keeping their damage relatively low? They are infantry, after all, and if we're gonna use them for infantry, they shouldn't burst into flames the instant they see the slightest enemy defenses. They die by the dozens from Punisher area affect hits... it's just a massacre. When level 1 defenses are capable of destroying level 1 primary assault units bunches at a time, it makes me think those units need a bit of a boost in HP.
I get concerns about balance when I see armies of peewees and especially AKs get slaughtered in the first few seconds of assaults against fairly weak defenses.
Even if they are cheap, there is a point where the ratio of expense / hp + firepower does not make sense. Example: fleas. Fleas are not for attacking, they die too quickly. But AKs die very quickly too, and they are slated as infantry kbots. Yet, an offensive kbot isn't valuable when it has a short range weapon and can be killed in droves by simple defenses.
In my opinion, the cost ratio game balance concept fails on the low and the high extreme of the list. AKs are too low HP to be valuable infantry, no matter how cheap they are. On the other hand, Krogoths and the ARM equivalent (whatever it is) are too high in HP to be in the game at all. On one end, the AK dies when attacked by pretty much anything. On the other end, it takes pretty much EVERYTHING to stop a Krogoth. THese are at the extreme end of the cost ratio balance scale, and both are trouble.
So, at the low end, it's a waste of units to use AKs as assault infantry kbots, which they are labeled as and intended for. Even tho they are cheap, they are also too low in HP to make for good attack units.
On the high end, Krogoths / Orcones can only be stopped if there is a concentrated and specialized defense in place to stop them. ANything less than this high concentration of defenses will not stop them and they will proceed to destroy everything the victim player has. Even tho they are very expensive, they are also so high in HP that a single unit is unstoppable unless special and expensive countermeasures are in place.
In both cases, both ends of the spectrum, the balance is broken because the resource cost / hp / firepower ratio approach to game balance doesn't work at such extremes.
Ehh... except that you're wrong.
Neither AKs nor Peewees are intended for assault of any kind. They're good for raiding and early game attack/defense, they're great for fighting base assault units such as rocko/thud/etc. AKs are NOT for base assault. Never never ever. You need heavier units and ideally a few artillery units. You can still use AKs and Peewees though - for instance, using them to rush past defenses rather than fighting them. They're good as distractions, too.. Uh... yeah, anyway, don't use them to attack a fortified position or base.
Krogoths/Orcones are of course next to unstoppable unless you are prepared for them. However, an army of almost any unit using the equivalent cost of metal will beat them hands-down. They're what to use when nothing else can survive long enough to do any damage.
Neither AKs nor Peewees are intended for assault of any kind. They're good for raiding and early game attack/defense, they're great for fighting base assault units such as rocko/thud/etc. AKs are NOT for base assault. Never never ever. You need heavier units and ideally a few artillery units. You can still use AKs and Peewees though - for instance, using them to rush past defenses rather than fighting them. They're good as distractions, too.. Uh... yeah, anyway, don't use them to attack a fortified position or base.
Krogoths/Orcones are of course next to unstoppable unless you are prepared for them. However, an army of almost any unit using the equivalent cost of metal will beat them hands-down. They're what to use when nothing else can survive long enough to do any damage.
[quote="Caydr"]The faster firing rate makes a big difference. Imagine an AK missing one shot - that's 75 damage down the drain permanently. If a peewee misses one or even as many as 7 shots per second, it's still ahead of the game. And as the number of units involved in battles increase, their odds of missing anything decreases.[/quote] AKs now have beam lazers, which nearly always hit (except for planes and perhaps fleas). Also...I thought AKs were faster than peewees and cost less...anyways I think the balance for AKs and Peewees is good right now...they are good at early rushes but then you have to move on to lvl. 2 for nicer units like zippers.
Orclones and Krogroths don't seem as much as a problem of balance as LRPC's....although we do have the repulsors they are hard to manage.
I can think of 4 main counters to mechs:
lots of bombers
mine-field
high power weapons or LRPCs
and of course another mech.
Orclones and Krogroths don't seem as much as a problem of balance as LRPC's....although we do have the repulsors they are hard to manage.
I can think of 4 main counters to mechs:
lots of bombers
mine-field
high power weapons or LRPCs
and of course another mech.
I can't really agree with this. Maybe it's because I haven't seen a truly equal amount of metal in the opposing forces, but I've really never seen an orcone or krogoth go down by standard attack units regardless of their numbers. I did see a krog die to massive penetrator and battleship bombardment, but basically laughed at large numbers of bulldogs, goliaths, bombers and rapiers.Krogoths/Orcones are of course next to unstoppable unless you are prepared for them. However, an army of almost any unit using the equivalent cost of metal will beat them hands-down.
I have a hard time agreeing with having any unit that is capable of marching right across a map and into an enemy base all by itself if the enemy isn't perfectly prepared to deal with it. I like the medium lvl3 kbots just fine. But when there are units that require planet-killing power to take down, that changes the game from a tactical / strategy challenge into a 'whoever builds the giant robot first wins' game. A bit like XTA brawler swarms...
If one side is having a hard time getting past an enemy's defenses, then a different strategy / tactic is required, not a giant 29000 HP walking robot. It's like saying: if you are in trouble, don't concern yourself with improving your tactics, just make a single massive unit and give it a move order. You're welcome!
As for the AK / Peewee... I can accept that they should not be used for base attack. But low HP is low HP regardless. They die just as easily to other units as they do to LLTs. In most fights, they get only a second or two of attack before they are killed by even light weapons. Since they die so easily, you have to send alot in, and since you send alot in, they block eachother's shots, keeping you from concentrating firepower on single units. A row of rockos is much more effective than a swarm of AKs. But if those AKs could last a bit more in a fight, you would be getting your money's worth out of them. As is, all AKs are good for is attacking mexxes and construction kbots. Is that the purpose of an infantry kbot?
In fact, I did have such a replay, but I deleted it (was on altored divide). The AK can manuver like a Jackie Chan. The stall of the unit is only slight when reissuing an order. Flashes have a very noticable stall, and peewees are only slight, like the ak. Microing an AK is extremely easy to do and very effective.Forboding Angel wrote:Ak's better than peewees? Are you out of your mind?
1 ak vs 1 peewee before changes. Peewee wins. Ak's have always been inferior, just no one really spoke out about it because it didn't really matter.
Nice general statement about ak's and flash, care to back that up with a replay? No? I didn't think so.
Running perpendicular to a flash/peewee fire dodges a fair amt of emp bullets. Everytime u try to micro a flash, it does stall a bit, unless u queued up some predetermined move patterns, which almost never happen against someone who is microing their unit very well. As long as the AK can stay out of the flash's range and keep moving, it will survive very well. I have seen this for I have been the flash and the AK. The flash will STILL win, but the AK will take out a good chunk of its life.
2v1 it can go either way, but if the AK's stay on either side of the flash with some REALLY GOOD micro, the flash will lose. But if the person has bad micro, the flash will own the heck out of the ak's.
The weakness of the flash and peewee lies in the time it takes to turn their torso/barrel at the enemy. You can get in a few shots on them as they do it. Peewee's aren't good at moving and firing at the same time. Flashes are a lot better at this, but the AK does it extremely well. The flash and peewee's do more DOT, I admit to that. Thats what makes flashes so useful even after the rush raids. Flashes own stumpies and hammers and rockos.
tanelorn STFU and play barebones
btw i know barebones IS supposed to be orignial units only, but i would LOVE to see the adv planes (krow and liche) in there and the mercury.
i love barebones because its simple but lategame it is a bit dull, if u would include anything but the mechs and stupid adv units that i really hate and just evolved barebones along TAs original gameplay, with cool, useful extra units, maybe 5-10 per side added?
i love barebones mmmm barebones :D
btw i know barebones IS supposed to be orignial units only, but i would LOVE to see the adv planes (krow and liche) in there and the mercury.
i love barebones because its simple but lategame it is a bit dull, if u would include anything but the mechs and stupid adv units that i really hate and just evolved barebones along TAs original gameplay, with cool, useful extra units, maybe 5-10 per side added?
i love barebones mmmm barebones :D
i want AA-B but with all the ships (<3) from AA none of the mechs and a few, say 5-6 extra units from AA-S (in particular the air superweapons and things like the veil and the hyper radar)-
Doomweaver
- Posts: 704
- Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14
You're probably wrong though.Doomweaver wrote:The AK is way too good. Early game it is the ultimate assault unit... maybe drop the damage down to 55 and slow it down a little too. I've always found that AK's were a bit too fast/responsive.
For instance a LLT owns a AK/Peewee really fast and costs the double of them.
Is there a changelog or something?FizWizz wrote:check it out, AA 1.41-M, Min3Mat Edition
It requires AA 1.41 to play
In no way, shape, or form is this mod endorsed or supported by Caydr. If you experience problems with AA 1.41-M (which shouldn't happen) contact me for assistance, not Caydr.