Is there even want of maps anymore?

[PicassoCT]

So you mean that "just because its only a tutorial, it has no need to be catchy, driving?" and the walls are there, so that the player can decide when to push forward and when to retreat, else its all about triggers going happy, and good luck with player stepping on the right square in open territory. if you just want mutliplayer-simulations, why not just make it multiplayergame vs bot? Why call it mission then?

[MahrinSkel]

So you mean that "just because its only a tutorial, it has no need to be catchy, driving?" and the walls are there, so that the player can decide when to push forward and when to retreat, else its all about triggers going happy, and good luck with player stepping on the right square in open territory. if you just want mutliplayer-simulations, why not just make it multiplayergame vs bot? Why call it mission then?

Not at all. In fact, I'm not quite sure what your objection is.

I want to at least try to do it this way for several reasons:

1) Aesthetics. Terrain that has been turned into a rail-road to keep the players in line *looks* like it. I want more natural-looking maps, and yes, I realize I am trading one kind of unrealism (high walled canyons that obey no geological rules) for another (symmetrical maps that are improbable in nature). Like I said, it's an aesthetic objection, I find radial or mirror symmetry less obviously contrived.

2) A belief that such railroads are un-necessary crutches that spackle over designer laziness. If the player will set off the firestorm by crossing the invisible line, it's a mistake by the designer: Why is the line invisible? Why does the player have no idea that movement in that direction is dangerous? Why does it trigger an attack of arbitrary strength that may be too strong for the player too handle, or too weak to provide a challenge?

3) Just because I'll use multi-player maps doesn't mean I'll set them up like multi-player matches, with the AI taking the place of the other players. Multi-player maps can provide chokepoints and directional flow, and this can be augmented with indestructible structures if necessary.

4) I don't want to create "just a tutorial", in fact I want to explore something that has been badly neglected in the RTS genre: Narrative. Twisty little passages and fixed cutscenes are lousy ways of providing pacing and drama, IMO, but they have stayed the standard in an RTS even as shooters and RPG's have moved on.

5) They do encourage bad habits, specifically to do nothing but build and defend a base until you are sure you have enough power to punch through the opposition. Putting a timer on it doesn't change the player's optimum strategy, just makes him learn to do it faster (at least that can be excused as training for the build-order econ game of multiplayer, sort of).

I come from different world-building conventions, where maps were created to be aesthetically interesting, and then most of the encounters and stories were retrofitted into them (sometimes years later).

--Dave

[smoth]

Not all maps are obviously linear nor are non linear maps with symetry blatant symmetrical maps. Go look at the grts maps.

[smoth]

P.s. Gunmetal was MADE for missions. But it uses a horizontal C shape with that as the guiding symmetrical line. Yet even with the larger symetry I then did decidedly asymmetrical features and map details.

[PicassoCT]

Face it - for a good story to be told tense, you need linear action -or otherwise, a sandbox and a titanic team.

Everything else is just a standarbattle in disguise.

[MahrinSkel]

P.s. Gunmetal was MADE for missions. But it uses a horizontal C shape with that as the guiding symmetrical line. Yet even with the larger symetry I then did decidedly asymmetrical features and map details.

I see what you're saying, the topology of it is more subtle than it appears at first. I really like Heights and River Valley.

--Dave

[MahrinSkel]

Face it - for a good story to be told tense, you need linear action -or otherwise, a sandbox and a titanic team.

Everything else is just a standarbattle in disguise.

Game narrative is a sequence of obstacles. Although railroads are the easiest way of ensuring the players don't bypass the sequence, they aren't the only one (nor is it necessarily game-breaking if the player finds a faster way to the cheese).

You don't want an event that is essential to the plot to get dropped because the player did something "out of the box". But it can happen, even in the most carefully built games (like breaking out of the Vault in Fallout 3 while still a toddler), without ruining the experience.

You can't force players to play the "right way" any more than you can force them to have fun.

--Dave

[PicassoCT]

I disagree, you can leave them freedom, go wherever you want within the pipe, but every game that leaves moar then that, sucks when it comes to telling the story. You need a controll over the pacing at some points.

Name me one sandbox game with a really gripping story- where they dont catch you and pull you back into the pipe before the storysegment starts.

Freedom of the Player is the freedom the narrator(gamedesigner) allows. That freedom can expand into the do everything tatical possible to reach goal freedom) you described, but if it is only this freedom, your mission will be a boring multiplayer game without multiple players. Why should i download it then? I have the map allready, i have the bots, i have the mod.. where is the tension, the reason for clicking on your link?

[MahrinSkel]

I disagree, you can leave them freedom, go wherever you want within the pipe, but every game that leaves moar then that, sucks when it comes to telling the story. You need a controll over the pacing at some points.

Yes, you do. You can't tell a story without controlling the order in which the player encounters the core elements, and ensuring that they do.

--Dave

[PicassoCT]

I disagree, you can leave them freedom, go wherever you want within the pipe, but every game that leaves moar then that, sucks when it comes to telling the story. You need a controll over the pacing at some points.

Yes, you do. You can't tell a story without controlling the order in which the player encounters the core elements, and ensuring that they do.

--Dave

Can or can`t?

Because if its can┬┤t its right.

If its can, its wrong. In that case you tell mutliple storys, or, if you dont get into that sort of trouble to adjust the story towards the choices of the player (which becomes a rather complicated power of two (good times evil) construct if you dont render those choices irrelevant, which then results in a bundled of shortstories, without any real connection thrown on the map.

WarCraft 3 and HalfLife2 i choose you. Go and Fetch me twenty Trollskins.

[MahrinSkel]

Can or can`t?

Because if its can┬┤t its right.

If its can, its wrong. In that case you tell mutliple storys, or, if you dont get into that sort of trouble to adjust the story towards the choices of the player (which becomes a rather complicated power of two (good times evil) construct if you dont render those choices irrelevant, which then results in a bundled of shortstories, without any real connection thrown on the map.

WarCraft 3 and HalfLife2 i choose you. Go and Fetch me twenty Trollskins.

We weren't disagreeing about whether or not narrative requires control: It does, by its nature you are pushing an experience, a point of view, on the player. We were arguing about whether that could be done without using maps like the one you included the picture of. It can.

--Dave

[KaiserJ]

battlefield maps will always be less appropriate than a specifically crafted mission map; even to alter one side visually "oh look, there's goo on the ground... we're in zerg territory" can do wonders in terms of immersion

certainly the only true limit to making a mission is ones own creativity

[knorke]

chosing the map is the simplest problem
you mention cutscenes and sequences, the closest on spring I have seen are some images and text that appear on the screen.
good luck though.

[Google_Frog]

You don't have to use Spring to do cutscenes. A sequential campaign will require something to link the maps together. This could be an 'ingame' lua lobby or you could use a current program like ZKL, this could display cutscenes.

As for good maps that noone plays that is a hard question to answer as I try to play the good maps when I can remember them.

[smoth]

still waiting on lualobby before I attempt a campaign.

[PicassoCT]

You don't have to use Spring to do cutscenes. A sequential campaign will require something to link the maps together. This could be an 'ingame' lua lobby or you could use a current program like ZKL, this could display cutscenes.

As for good maps that noone plays that is a hard question to answer as I try to play the good maps when I can remember them.

I found ingame cutscenes - though often technical lacking , much more engaging. Sure, i could render a flic, but this holds the temptation to generate a epic completely without player. Best is just triggered dialog.

Lets put and end to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhqT23KHET0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yCukvZR ... re=related

This can be done, and together with sausage levels, its good enough to have a huge fan crowd around. All you need is perfection.

[zwzsg]

still waiting on lualobby before I attempt a campaign.

Why?
LuaLobby is for multi.
Campaign are solo.

[PicassoCT]

The real chockepoint is the inability to properly direc cutscenes ingame. We need sort of a area related replay, with the ability to use unitposer to refine the rts movmenents.

Just imagine a drunk Gundampilot in the personal guard of some president or other vip, and he stomps on the family picknick, and with this the underdog-story sets-off, sending you to the prisoncolony on mars, and beyond... :D

Sorry smoth if i violate the canon, i always get carried away, if there is drama to lay hands upon..

[smoth]

still waiting on lualobby before I attempt a campaign.

Why?
LuaLobby is for multi.
Campaign are solo.

you assume I don't want to do coop stuff.

[PicassoCT]

why do simple stuff that allready takes millenia for a one man team to perfect, if you can do complicated stuff, that even gets whole teams down to there knees...