I think it should be done somewhat both ways.jellyman wrote:Or should level 2 bombers be improved to do more damage?
Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
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Oh my god! That's the most awesome picture I've ever seen!!!!MR.D wrote:
LOL?
SEriously though, LVL1 bombers are pretty freaking nasty... I didn't even find using LVL2 bombers as an option the last game I played. there wasn't a point since they do nearly as much as LVL2, and cost half as much not to mention in relation to the cost of the LVL2 aircraft plant alone..
Beefing up the other bombers to compensate for the LVL1 boost is not an answer either, what then would be the point of having the super heavy carpet bomber? or the LICHE?
LVL1 bombers now are basically LVL2 bombers with a discount, which is not fair in relation to other LVL1 powers, or vs the costs of the LVL2 bombers.
LVL 1 bombers deserve some kind of nerf for the sake of balence.
Uh... right... yeah I was thinking along those lines too. I'll reduce per-bomb damage on L1 bombers to 150 or so in the next version (from 200). I don't want to overreact - L1 bombers have been broken for so long that people simply don't know what to do to defend against them.
They're very fragile, can can be easily brought down by L1 fighters for far less cost. Even if you built 10 defenders/pulverizers at the perimeter of your base, you'd probably get at least 2 bombers per pass.
They're designed, simply put, to be a tradeoff - you often wind up spending as much in bombers as your opponent loses - but he also loses that amount of time that he'll be out a building. Bombers aren't cheap, and if all they do is, for instance, destroy a vehicle plant, you can probably get back a good deal of the plant's cost in wreckage.
The lv 1 bomber drops bombs over a large area, the lv 2 bomber even more so.
Only a complete idiot will not move his comm when he sees a bomber swarm coming towards him. Simply strafing the commander will make most of the bombers miss. And of those that do hit the commander, its only like 1-2 bombs, which is nothing. If you even have a little air defense, those bombers won't even make it around for a 2nd drop.
Lv 2 bombers are still worth building cuz they ARE stronger than lv 1. They can take more hits and drop more bombs and even have a puny laser (which does less damage than the commander's laser).
For the commander arguements, I agree. His laser is too weak to be of any use. One solution that I found out years ago was with the TA:M and uberhack. TA:M had a selectable, built in mutator, if enabled, increased the stats of the commander. It gave him double the walking speed, 6000 hp, and beefed up his laser.
Personally, I think that is too much for AA. Perhaps just a 30% increase in movement and a beef up to his laser. Increase the range perhaps to that of a rocko's and leave the dgun as is. Increase the damage of the laser to 100-125 a tick and leave the commander's HP as is. 4k HP is plenty, and with cloak + dgun tactics + nano shielding, he will still be harder to kill but not some uber unit that u need lv 2 for.
Only a complete idiot will not move his comm when he sees a bomber swarm coming towards him. Simply strafing the commander will make most of the bombers miss. And of those that do hit the commander, its only like 1-2 bombs, which is nothing. If you even have a little air defense, those bombers won't even make it around for a 2nd drop.
Lv 2 bombers are still worth building cuz they ARE stronger than lv 1. They can take more hits and drop more bombs and even have a puny laser (which does less damage than the commander's laser).
For the commander arguements, I agree. His laser is too weak to be of any use. One solution that I found out years ago was with the TA:M and uberhack. TA:M had a selectable, built in mutator, if enabled, increased the stats of the commander. It gave him double the walking speed, 6000 hp, and beefed up his laser.
Personally, I think that is too much for AA. Perhaps just a 30% increase in movement and a beef up to his laser. Increase the range perhaps to that of a rocko's and leave the dgun as is. Increase the damage of the laser to 100-125 a tick and leave the commander's HP as is. 4k HP is plenty, and with cloak + dgun tactics + nano shielding, he will still be harder to kill but not some uber unit that u need lv 2 for.
Good lord... beefing up the comm laser? increasing his movement speed?
Are you Mad?....
The com is perfect, like mat said... uber d gun with good range, and a nice laser to kill those annoying little peewees people always send to kill my mexes...
lots of htt points and a cloaking ability.....
Also... as mat/Choca pointed out.... Hes the best krog killer in the game,
Cloaky cloaky.... walkie walkie... shooty shooty... boom... no more krog.
:)
Oh yer And not moving your comm when a bomber swarm is approaching is a very very bad idea.... I agree with badman on that one.... hehe
Are you Mad?....
The com is perfect, like mat said... uber d gun with good range, and a nice laser to kill those annoying little peewees people always send to kill my mexes...
lots of htt points and a cloaking ability.....
Also... as mat/Choca pointed out.... Hes the best krog killer in the game,
Cloaky cloaky.... walkie walkie... shooty shooty... boom... no more krog.
:)
Oh yer And not moving your comm when a bomber swarm is approaching is a very very bad idea.... I agree with badman on that one.... hehe
I don't know where you're getting your information. Bombers do 200 damage x 6 = 1200 damage per pass assuming all bombs hit. L2 bombers do 250 damage x 8 = 2000.Forboding Angel wrote:ok time to use our brains.
If one bomber is doing 600 damage per run, lets take a swarm, say 15. 600*15=9000 dmg!!!!
Add in fighters and BOOM. dead com(arm com has about 4k health, core com has about 6k health) in just 1 pass for hardly any resources because you used level 1 bombers.
ok now 6000 / 600 = 10 meaning that if you want to kill a core com in one pass with level 1 bombers, you only need 10.
I'll stop here with the math. Any good player can pump out level 1 bombers like it's nothing.
THe level one bomber should do roughly 45 - 49% of the damage that a level 2 bomber does. THis just makes sense.
Furthermore... commanders both have 4000 HP, as do decoys. Where'd you get 6000 from?
I'm going to check into moho geos and see if i can trigger this script error you mentioned. Any idea whether it might've been arm or core?
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
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My big beef is with the Level 1 infantry kbots (ak, peewee). They are useless 90% of the time. THe other lvl1 kbots have a pretty strong difference in usefulness and strength, almost too much. A swarm of 20 AKs die almost immediately after encountering even mild resistance. A swarm of 20 Thuds can clean house even against an array of HLTs backed up with lesser defenses.
Right now, the AK and peewee is really only useful against defenseless or mildly defended targets. Harassment of mexxes, for example. People stop making them shortly into the game. What good is a unit when it becomes useless after the game has only gone on for a few minutes?
Rockos are a much better unit, but their low to the ground direct fire rockets get blocked especially easily. So their superior armor and firepower don't really give them the advantage.
Thuds are king. They get strong guns, arcing fire, and the best armor of them all (warriors excluded).
Now in my eyes, there's a balance issue here. Yes, AKs cost less than a Thud. But when 20 AKs can't handle 5 Thuds, there's an issue.
AK / Peewees have other disadvantages as well. Mostly in their vulnerability to splash damage. ALot of players see AKs and Peewees as great cannon fodder, drawing the attention of the enemy guns so the better units can close range unharmed. The best way to deal with a small number powerful enemy guns is to overwhelm them with targets. But because most weapons in the game have splash damage, including the ahnillator, AKs / Peewees die by the dozens after the first few seconds of a fight. WHen this happens, you didn't do much to distract the enemy guns, and you're out the resources it took to make those 20+ kbots. (I think ahnillator splash is a bad deal, in OTA ahnillators had two main disadvantages in a fight: slow traverse speed and single unit target damage)
So I'd really like to see a bit more usefulness given to our lowly level 1 infantry kbots. I don't think it's good game balance to add units in the build menu that are useless after the first 5 minutes of the game.
As for Thuds and Rockos, the issue with thuds is that they get the best of everything. They are simply a better and more expensive lvl1 kbot. For all other unit types, and even for lvl2 kbots, the variety of the units is all about specialty. There isn't much redundancy in the units. One exception I can think of is the Can / Sumo relationship. But even then, there's a difference of speed with the Sumo.
One of the cool things about TA is the great range of units one can use. Every unit you can build has a unique attack and movement method. When you have two units that perform the same role, are of the same class, and the only main differentiator is expense/armor/firepower, you are working against the value of variety. In general, it's not a good idea for one unit to completely phase out the worth of another unit. Thuds are doing that to Rockos, and pretty much all combat units are doing that to AKs / Peewees.
Here's my suggestions:
AKs and Peewees are made more expensive but given more armor. Their short range guns and weak firepower still keep them balanced, but this added armor lets them last longer in combat.
Rockos can stay rigt where they are. They have armor, they have firepower, it's just up to the player to keep them in a good formation so they get their shots on target.
Thuds should be changed from heavy brawling sluggers into artillery support. Cut down the armor and increase the range. Now these indirect fire kbots bring something to the table the other lvl1 kbots don't. They are labeled as artillery kbots, afterall. I know wolverine tanks offer artillery ability, but one reason players build kbots is because they can handle heavy terrain.
Right now, the AK and peewee is really only useful against defenseless or mildly defended targets. Harassment of mexxes, for example. People stop making them shortly into the game. What good is a unit when it becomes useless after the game has only gone on for a few minutes?
Rockos are a much better unit, but their low to the ground direct fire rockets get blocked especially easily. So their superior armor and firepower don't really give them the advantage.
Thuds are king. They get strong guns, arcing fire, and the best armor of them all (warriors excluded).
Now in my eyes, there's a balance issue here. Yes, AKs cost less than a Thud. But when 20 AKs can't handle 5 Thuds, there's an issue.
AK / Peewees have other disadvantages as well. Mostly in their vulnerability to splash damage. ALot of players see AKs and Peewees as great cannon fodder, drawing the attention of the enemy guns so the better units can close range unharmed. The best way to deal with a small number powerful enemy guns is to overwhelm them with targets. But because most weapons in the game have splash damage, including the ahnillator, AKs / Peewees die by the dozens after the first few seconds of a fight. WHen this happens, you didn't do much to distract the enemy guns, and you're out the resources it took to make those 20+ kbots. (I think ahnillator splash is a bad deal, in OTA ahnillators had two main disadvantages in a fight: slow traverse speed and single unit target damage)
So I'd really like to see a bit more usefulness given to our lowly level 1 infantry kbots. I don't think it's good game balance to add units in the build menu that are useless after the first 5 minutes of the game.
As for Thuds and Rockos, the issue with thuds is that they get the best of everything. They are simply a better and more expensive lvl1 kbot. For all other unit types, and even for lvl2 kbots, the variety of the units is all about specialty. There isn't much redundancy in the units. One exception I can think of is the Can / Sumo relationship. But even then, there's a difference of speed with the Sumo.
One of the cool things about TA is the great range of units one can use. Every unit you can build has a unique attack and movement method. When you have two units that perform the same role, are of the same class, and the only main differentiator is expense/armor/firepower, you are working against the value of variety. In general, it's not a good idea for one unit to completely phase out the worth of another unit. Thuds are doing that to Rockos, and pretty much all combat units are doing that to AKs / Peewees.
Here's my suggestions:
AKs and Peewees are made more expensive but given more armor. Their short range guns and weak firepower still keep them balanced, but this added armor lets them last longer in combat.
Rockos can stay rigt where they are. They have armor, they have firepower, it's just up to the player to keep them in a good formation so they get their shots on target.
Thuds should be changed from heavy brawling sluggers into artillery support. Cut down the armor and increase the range. Now these indirect fire kbots bring something to the table the other lvl1 kbots don't. They are labeled as artillery kbots, afterall. I know wolverine tanks offer artillery ability, but one reason players build kbots is because they can handle heavy terrain.
Last edited by tanelorn on 09 Jan 2006, 05:03, edited 1 time in total.
I'm a bit bothered too by the way that AKs/PWs tend to get rather useless once a player can start churning out the heavier units. The problem is that only a small number of them can fire at the same time in Spring, whereas many could fire at once in OTA.
I'll have to see what I can do about this. I'm strongly opposed to modifying thuds/hammers to make up for these other units' deficiencies though.
Reducing L1 bomber per-hit damage to 175
I'll have to see what I can do about this. I'm strongly opposed to modifying thuds/hammers to make up for these other units' deficiencies though.
Reducing L1 bomber per-hit damage to 175
I would say that my suggestion for adjusting Thuds is more about giving lvl1 kbots an light artillery ability more than compensating for AKs / Peewees. I saw this done in Uberhack and it really did improve the versatility and usefulness of lvl1 kbots. AKs assaulted, Rockos heavy assaulted / defended, and Thuds suported with indirect fire and assisted in sieges. Each kbot filled a unique and valuable role without overruling the eachothers usefulness.Caydr wrote:I'll have to see what I can do about this. I'm strongly opposed to modifying thuds/hammers to make up for these other units' deficiencies though.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
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- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
a lv 1 arty kbot would be much welcomed.
There was an ak v2.0 that some unit group put out, I believe it was just a beefier lv 1 ak to be used in tandem with regular ak's.
As it is, rushers like me rely on ak's for early damage (generally before the game hits the 1 minute mark). You would be amazed at what 100 ak's are capable of.
There was an ak v2.0 that some unit group put out, I believe it was just a beefier lv 1 ak to be used in tandem with regular ak's.
As it is, rushers like me rely on ak's for early damage (generally before the game hits the 1 minute mark). You would be amazed at what 100 ak's are capable of.