Testing Series. Final results.

Testing Series. Final results.

Here is where ideas can be collected for the skirmish AI in development

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Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Testing Series. Final results.

Post by Argh »

Okie doke... I have gotten done torture-testing all current AIs. Here's some information that should be helpful to anybody wanting to create AIs for Spring. I'm going to leave for a week or three now, to get my current project done, because if I stay around I'm going to just be spinning my wheels... so flame away, if that suits you, for telling you the "obvious" again.

1. The only AI that can handle custom, hacked mods that have any serious game-design alterations (new units, re-purposed units, etc.) with any real hope of not crashing very quickly was AAI. I did work with JCAI's configurations... no dice. NTAI's current build (and, yes, AF, I am aware you're re-writing the core, etc. but I'm testing what's available) was totally unable to handle anything except for the mods it has been specifically configured for... and that's only if they're left pretty much 100% pure. Even minor alterations, like changing the speed at which the Commander moves, made NTAI unstable :P

AAI required that I delete all learn and cache files, then ran, but when I got to the final sets of experiments, it also crashed, sometimes with memory leaks that crashed Windows :P

Even AAI has some serious problems, however. It cannot handle game designs that do not include Metal Extractors or Geos- lacking both things causes serious instability in the AI. None of the other AIs were even remotely stable, however, when presented with radical changes to the game design, so I have to give Submarine the prize here.


2. None of the AIs were able to find me if I just made big enough rings of DTs around my base. You can win almost any map by simply using a Necro/Fark and a Com to DT a large portion of a map. Boom, you win- the AI won't ever eat the DTs, nor will it scout you. I don't think it even matters if the AIs eventually build Air, if they can't handle that. DTs are a lot more important in XTA (as is resurrection) than they were in TA- the changes the SYs have made to get rid of micro have really changed a lot of fundamentals about how TA works, and I don't get the impression that most folks really understand that yet.

3. None of the AIs really held their own if I could build halfway-decent defenses. None of them ever changed the direction they attacked from, for example. AAI gets the prize, however, because it... and only it... built custom units and used them. It was quite nice to see my Mecha getting sent to attack me, but it sent them in random drips and drabs, which wasn't effective.

4. None of the AIs build any defenses worth a darn. Period. Random collections of defenses are just a waste of resources against a good player.

5. None of the AIs cleaned up battlefield wreckage, especially in their bases, with enough speed for it to matter. This is something that a player might, for example, even use the D-Gun for, if time was desperately short- and the very least, players will re-task Fark/Nec/whatever.

6. None of the AIs resurrect.

7. None of the AIs help factories.

8. None of the AIs build formations that make any sense.

The only games I played where an AI was remotely a threat were games where I gave the AI 100% advantage, played 3 on 1, and even then, only on small maps where the AI could rush me before I had defenses that mattered. After that... none of them were remotely challenging. AAI, 3 vs. 1, with a 100% advantage, is challenging on small maps, so long as I don't break it by using DTs to put my base outside its scouts' sight radii. NTAI was challenging only on maps like Ashap Plateau where its sheer rushing speed to get mexxes placed helped it. Even then, if I could hold two and throw up Mohos, I was fine. I suspect that adding Air to the equation will not change things greatly, but I'm not happy with the way Air is balanced in XTA, period, so that's another issue.

So... there you go. Hopefully this was useful to all of you. Point no. 1 is especially important- if you want to see the full range of possible game designs that could be built for Spring, then this awkward limitation needs to be looked at. My suspicion is that every current AI has code in it that looks for Mexxes in the FBI files (or hard-coded buildtree) and if it can't find it, it crashes. My guess is that AAI will require the least amount of alteration before it can run without this problem, but the other ones are going to have serious problems handling anything that doesn't basically look like XTA.

Which, if it wasn't already obvious, is what I'm going to build.
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AF
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Post by AF »

If NTAI 0.27 or later cannot gett he unitdef of the metal extractor it wants to build be ti ebcause its faulty or its noneexistant, it fails the task and skips on to the next item. Other than that, changing stats shouldnt really affect the AI save possibly AAI and maybe KAI as NTAI OTAI etc only use the unitname, the health (to calculate percentages), and the discussed methods of telling if its a defence/factory/builder/attacker etc.

Next version fo NTAI has Ressurection, helping, and reclaimation support, and AAI has repairing. OTAI already has untis helping factories but I dont think it can discriminate between a half built solar and a half built peewee. And the NTAI test builds are totally mod independant working for any mod on any situation (you started out with a con kbot instead of a commander? So what).

The DT thing I hadnt really realized as being that bad tho ^_^, I think the initial hot period is over for you and ally ou can expect is either AI devs giving excuses or other people joining in =D
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jcnossen
Former Engine Dev
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Post by jcnossen »

7) I've seen NTAI, AAI help factories with builders, and JCAI does it too...
OTAI maybe too, but I haven't really tested it yet.
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AF
AI Developer
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Post by AF »

Oh yah, NTAI makes idle con guard other cons, including factories. See any long con chains? In test on brazil battlefields where I let it roam unimpeded there'd be traffic jams where the whole map was a big base and a hundred cons where guarding a single con which was stuck because of all the guarding cons it had.
IMSabbel
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005, 13:29

Post by IMSabbel »

I have seen OTAI 1.05 ressurect units with farks... if they are build and wreckage is there, they will do it...
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alaney3
Posts: 19
Joined: 26 Nov 2005, 16:09

+nowisee

Post by alaney3 »

Is their A cheat command for Spring like in Total Annilation simular to +nowisee, it would really help in watching exactly what an AI is building , doing ect.. and better help AI developers. If not can one simular be implemented :P
Chocapic
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Oct 2005, 03:35

Post by Chocapic »

->
.cheat
.spectator
and afterwords
.team 0
IMSabbel
Posts: 747
Joined: 30 Jul 2005, 13:29

Post by IMSabbel »

well
it would be nice to be able to see everything AND control a team at the same time...
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krogothe
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Nov 2005, 17:07

Post by krogothe »

lol you do enjoy stating the obvious, since we as AI developers know better than anyone what our AIs can and cant do...
but hey im not complaining, i like reading your posts =)

1- all AIs will support at least the major mods, and all will support mods with some cfgs, while some will support any mod with no tweaking whatsoever. Same goes for types of metal on a given map.
2-most AIs will fix DT removal soon and youd get porced and therefore killed on a lot of maps.
3-Even something as simple as the (temporary 30 line long code) beehive system KAI uses provides simp flanking, its really easy to add and im sure more AIs will have that very soon.
4-not really, randomly scatered defenses are a huge advantage compared to no defenses (you cant kill a base with a weasel anymore). clever defence placement doesnt seem like a huge priority and will not very likely be implemented soon (for me anyways)
5-Can be done easily but the interface sucks for features at the moment so ill be holding that for a while till AIs can get better info on a feature (eg how long to reclaim something or how much it will give me).
6-again sucky interface for features, cant tell if its rezzable AFAIK, plus not really that useful in most games (non-nooby ones)
7-Give it time, we are all aware of it and will sort it
8-formations are pretty much my last concern, IMO an AI gotta do everything else well before even thinking about having them implemented


Are you Xenoargh in the lobby?
You forgot to test KAI :)
Chocapic
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Oct 2005, 03:35

Post by Chocapic »

im with krogothe here, it has passed not that much time since ai's were started to get developed.
just give it time my friend :wink:
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Veylon
AI Developer
Posts: 174
Joined: 21 Sep 2005, 19:45

Post by Veylon »

Problem with Detecting player DT: No function that pops up when new feature appears.
Solution: When a scout gets stuck, check for nearby low, non-zero metal obstructing features and mark the site:

Problem with detecting rez/no-rez metal objects: No flag
Solution: Order Rez Kbot to resurrect, then reclaim that location in a very tight circle (5 width). That way, nothing's wasted and it doesn't try to get the non-rez feature again.
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

How does the player interface then get rez/no-rez/reclaim data, then? Surely, this data is set up somewhere... is it just not accessible to the AI client interface?
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krogothe
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Nov 2005, 17:07

Post by krogothe »

yeah thats pretty much it!
Actually players should get more info on features like resource amount, what unit that was (if its a corpse) and % reclaimed/rezzed
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