t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

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Drac
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Joined: 26 Jun 2011, 16:00

t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Drac » 26 Jun 2011, 16:51

Samson still overused in teamgames and also not very good against air. This change based on the fact that in 1v1 these units used for mostly aa which they are overpriced and quite bad and in teamgames massing them is still a valid tactic.

Samson
-30% dps vs ground
+30% dps vs air
los change from 620 to 350 , why is this unit a spotter anyway ?

Samson is the spotter for artillery atm



Artillery

+40 sightdistance after every second unit is not moving , maximum 750
extra sigthdistance lost ofc after unit moving

or

intruduce a t1 radar vehicle with stats kinda like this
750 los
1400 radar
300hp
80 cost
missile truck speed

Thats it have fun
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Masure
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Masure » 26 Jun 2011, 19:21

Your point about samson is valid imho.
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MrCucumber
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by MrCucumber » 27 Jun 2011, 05:50

Increasing arty DPS or accuracy should also happen if this is too be done. Play testing would be needed to find a perfect arty balance. Also missile trucks should prioritize air over land or have two weapons.
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Drac
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Drac » 27 Jun 2011, 10:18

There is only one problem with arty, when confronted with defenses the defender has time to build nanos cost 247 , artie 176(core 196) and 1 nano can heal the dps of a single artie or more especially if the arty miss a lot.

Probably nobody would build more than 4-6 arties to get the job done and when finally the attacker gives up with his now worthless artilleris the defender will be in much more favorable position to tech or whatever he wants with the extra buildpower.

Example on folsomdam middle the bridge.

Ofcourse in 1v1 this situation is almost unheard of but in 1v1 too you should expect them to destroy the heavily defended point instead of recommending your opponent to build a few nanos which he can later use for an extra factory.

Solution is simple :

-Damaged units and buildings cant be repaired for 3 seconds

or

-Units and buildings being repaired suffer double damage

A global change that would make the game little more fast paced and intresting

Missile trucks prioritizing air over land sounds good , the problem with giving them both weapons that they can do both jobs at the same time so their dps need to be nerfed and rigth now their air dps is pitiful nerfing them further would make them lose against the banshee in 1v1 migth aswell introduce an anti air vehicle but i tried to keep the missile truck.
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Blackdutchie
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Blackdutchie » 27 Jun 2011, 12:12

Simpler solution:
Samson and Slasher can only fire while stationary.

Problem solved, [/thread]

Reasoning:
Can no longer kite units as easily, more susceptible to assaults from units with lower range (which is everything) can be more easily kited by longer range units, even if they are slower numbers-wise.
Also requires more micro, probably.
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babbles
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by babbles » 27 Jun 2011, 12:27

Stereotypical BA player in XTA : "wtf why does AA shoot ground?"
Me: "what's vehicle AA in BA?"
BA player: "samson"
Me: "So why can samson shoot ground?"
BA player: "samson isn't AA"
Me: "so what's vehicle AA?"
BA player: samson
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Johannes
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Johannes » 27 Jun 2011, 12:30

Drac wrote:Samson still overused in teamgames and also not very good against air. This change based on the fact that in 1v1 these units used for mostly aa which they are overpriced and quite bad and in teamgames massing them is still a valid tactic.
What's overused mean? They are too good, or used too much compared to their usefulness? Beating mass samson was always possible, now it's much easier. Why do you want to completely remove a build from the game so badly?

Them being used almost mostly for aa in 1v1 is just a myth too.
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dansan
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by dansan » 27 Jun 2011, 15:34

+1 to make Samsons prio shooting air over ground.

But about ground: I just love the recent Samson nerv: There are still so many players out there that attack with Samsons and I love to just push straight through them with some levelers and collect M.
If Samsons are overused its bad players problem and my win - no need to change that :twisted:


(IMO pushing BA changelog with lobby pop-up through to players mind would help most in this case.)
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Pxtl
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Pxtl » 27 Jun 2011, 16:06

Just accept that there is no true AA in T1 Veh. You want mobile AA? Build bots or MTs or an Airlab.
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Drac
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Drac » 27 Jun 2011, 22:00

dansan wrote:+1 to make Samsons prio shooting air over ground.

But about ground: I just love the recent Samson nerv: There are still so many players out there that attack with Samsons and I love to just push straight through them with some levelers and collect M.
If Samsons are overused its bad players problem and my win - no need to change that :twisted:


(IMO pushing BA changelog with lobby pop-up through to players mind would help most in this case.)
Levelers cant catch samsons
Johannes wrote:
Drac wrote:Samson still overused in teamgames and also not very good against air. This change based on the fact that in 1v1 these units used for mostly aa which they are overpriced and quite bad and in teamgames massing them is still a valid tactic.
What's overused mean? They are too good, or used too much compared to their usefulness? Beating mass samson was always possible, now it's much easier. Why do you want to completely remove a build from the game so badly?

Them being used almost mostly for aa in 1v1 is just a myth too.
They are bit better then they should be especially at core where they could be defended by riot tanks against fast tanks like flashes which would normally be the perfect counter so if you are arm against a core who mix army of missile trucks and riot tanks you better bring some medium tanks but by the time you do , you are most likely defending and lost valuable territory to missile trucks. And he could easily bring along his commander to fight off the medium tanks forcing you to defend. Ofcourse this depends how open the territy is and mainly talking about team games.

1v1 their main role is aa / spotter imo , secondary harrassing armies and destroying mex+llt combos for example on ccr

I dont want to remove it and i alredy wrote down the proposed changes to make it more intresting. This unit could use a buff in 1v1 and a nerf in team games.
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Wombat
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Wombat » 27 Jun 2011, 22:43

This unit could use a buff in 1v1 and a nerf in team games.
gl with that lol

samsons are cool. ur examples show that u played mainly 8v8dsd and 1v1s against some low ranks tbh.
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dansan
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by dansan » 27 Jun 2011, 23:09

Drac wrote:Levelers cant catch samsons
It's not a race :lol:
Normally there is a front, where they face each other.
Even if a player wants its samsons to flee (most players never pull units back), before a group of samsons has turned the levelers are already in shooting range.
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AF
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by AF » 27 Jun 2011, 23:18

And even if the samsons start moving back, youve still managed to push back the front
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Wombat
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Wombat » 27 Jun 2011, 23:37

^this
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sillynanny
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by sillynanny » 28 Jun 2011, 13:43

dansan wrote:
Drac wrote:Levelers cant catch samsons
It's not a race :lol:
Normally there is a front, where they face each other.
Even if a player wants its samsons to flee (most players never pull units back), before a group of samsons has turned the levelers are already in shooting range.
Lol.

First, the samsons dont take that long to turn, because you can move them forward diagonally so they are always at most a 90┬║ turn from retreat. What actually happens is, the moment the levelers start moving, the samsons are already turning, so that the levelers may not actually get a single shot in.

Most players do pull units back. This barely deserves comment??

But the most important thing is that this area that you refer to as the Front is that it is not just about a few samsons and levelers. It is an area with lots of static defense and other shorter range units, and it is in this space that the samsons often push. To push against that with Levelers is a waste, because you will never ever make damage similar to the cost of the levelers, and is only useful to buy a little time. More, you take a huge risk, because Levelers don't have retreat ability, while samsons never even have to get into a danger area.

Otherwise people wouldn't have to glue their comm to their leveler when pushing against samsons, would they?

I hate samsons. Refuse to build them. They are easy to counter, but not with vehicles.

I think they just need to be more expensive. Giving samson priority to fire at air targets may sound good but it actually would make samsons better, not weaker.
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sillynanny
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by sillynanny » 28 Jun 2011, 13:43

AF wrote:And even if the samsons start moving back, youve still managed to push back the front
For 5 seconds, at a cost of 1000 metal.
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Drac
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Drac » 28 Jun 2011, 19:05

I dont like them either but community like the cool samsons ! Their los should be the first thing that should be changed , in teamgames building 1-2 samsons early(first 5 min) is a must mainly for the sigthrange , sadly scouts and radars cant be used for this role since they are paperlight and samsons easily kill them. Samsons also prevents combombing and early game when the only defense is llt they are the best to destroy them and greatly reduce the enemy opportunity to build a hlt.

Short version: They offer too much for their cost

1v1 their sigth range become quite worthless also i would swap their ground attacking ability for 35% more airdps at least they would not waste their shoot on medium tanks, but what about the ground attack?

Rare that all mexes are taken most games end way before that but if that occur someone migth say it is a good idea to use them to destroy few mex+llt combos near your border , of course you cant use them to destroy deeper because they would get killed and you cant build a lot because that would weaken your army considerably. Not talking about a lot only a few 2-3 tops but nearly always there is a nastier tactic to make the enemy pay but we can call it cheap and annoying and very rare opportunity to use it.

Bit long probably wasting my time with balance suggestions :) but ba could use this balance talks and since the t1 veh factory is the most used it has to be first, if these talks sucsessfull t1 kbot factory is the next, and ohoh it can you use it more than t1 veh factory can.
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AF
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by AF » 28 Jun 2011, 21:21

sillynanny wrote:
AF wrote:And even if the samsons start moving back, youve still managed to push back the front
For 5 seconds, at a cost of 1000 metal.
Nobody sends a swarm of levelers in on their own, you might be winning for all of 5 seconds, but if you don't have a pretty good step 2 to back up that move you've made a fatal error.
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Yuri
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Yuri » 29 Jun 2011, 11:18

I like that now the tarded missile trucks are fragile so you can actually kill it on a run with stumps.

Rising the cost is one way or make them non shooting while moving.
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Beherith
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Re: t1 veh factory change , Samson ??

Post by Beherith » 29 Jun 2011, 11:30

Non shooting while moving is a massive inconsistency with all other ba units. In fact it's orthogonal with the entire BA philosophy. Imo the recent health nerf did a great deal to alleviate the samson spam.
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